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Dev blog: A new Era of Clones

First post
Author
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-12-02 18:18:30 UTC
Do you plan to add a medical bay to every NPC stations since upgrading a clone is no more an issue after podkill ?

This will make again non medical NPC station a valuable home system for players.

As you removed remote home system setup, you can no longer setup you home station in a non medical npc station unless once a year if your corp has an office. If you deploy somewhere else within a year you can't change your home... so bad..

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2014-12-02 18:19:00 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:

No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.

Agreed — and removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2014-12-02 18:20:17 UTC
Pic'n dor wrote:
Do you plan to add a medical bay to every NPC stations since upgrading a clone is no more an issue after podkill ?

This will make again non medical NPC station a valuable home system for players.

As you removed remote home system setup, you can no longer setup you home station in a non medical npc station unless once a year if your corp has an office. If you deploy somewhere else within a year you can't change your home... so bad..


It seems you have stumbled upon one of the intended consequences of the power projection damping changes made in Phoebe.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2014-12-02 18:21:41 UTC
I lost 13 pods so far (killed 910 give or take). I hardly get out of my slave set (Santo trafficante can tell) so clone costs are not the issue rather than implant costs. Make corpses a ressource (salvageable) that can be salvaged that would spark a whole new profession.
What more motivation for a empire carebear than salvaging some pirats corpse is there to finally dare to go to low sec? Head hunter actually would mean something.
This could also work in pve. Place some frozen corpses in exploration sites or wormhole sites (Jove went into cryo-sleep...would fit into lore to stage some "malfunctions".

I guess you thought that through so I expect some mitigation that makes death still mean something.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2014-12-02 18:31:01 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I lost 13 pods so far (killed 910 give or take). I hardly get out of my slave set (Santo trafficante can tell) so clone costs are not the issue rather than implant costs. Make corpses a ressource (salvageable) that can be salvaged that would spark a whole new profession.
What more motivation for a empire carebear than salvaging some pirats corpse is there to finally dare to go to low sec? Head hunter actually would mean something.
This could also work in pve. Place some frozen corpses in exploration sites or wormhole sites (Jove went into cryo-sleep...would fit into lore to stage some "malfunctions".

I guess you thought that through so I expect some mitigation that makes death still mean something.

I've always thought this was a good idea — the idea of folks scrambling to loot and/or salvage corpses during gatecamps always felt like a fun, if ghoulish, thing that could be added. Doing it this way means that the spoils almost always go to the aggressors rather than the person who lost the stuff, which is an added bonus in my book.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-12-02 18:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anonymous Forumposter
Quoting UFS Fenix

"This change and the changes to awoxing really make me want to re-consider eve."


Bye :)

"Us hardcore pilots grinded missions so we could put poses in High sec, you guys changed this. Us veterans made extra isk and for over 7 years kept our clones up to date, you changed that."


And during those times you reaped the benefits of that strategy.

"Why don't you remove all standings for factions so we can run lvl 4s from day one and get good refining from day one."


Apparently being upset makes you post irrationally.

"Why do we have pods with the current changes? Just remove the pods and make us normal eve pilots... while your at it , get rid of everything else that adds risk to the game."


*You're

"We can just make the ships respawn with fittings in our hangers after we get blown up.

Change the name from eve-online to wow-online because that's where things are headed."


Please see response #3

"What ever happened to the other changes you promised years ago? Walking in stations never went anywhere, I cant manipulate anything in my captains quarters, doors don't close, cant enter main part of station, beds are useless..."


Plans changed. This is common. The entire world is familiar with this happening.

"Eve is about the risk/vs Reward. Removing risk, removes the fun. The cap changes last month I thought were great, things like this clone change make eve less risky and therefore less fun."


You're looking at the first stage in an obstacle course and judging the entire thing based on your flawed understanding of the first part. This is just the beginning. In case you simply struggle with reading comprehension, this was made VERY clear in the blog.

"Yes you can have my stuff."


Thanks :)

"It seems like in order to bring in more scrubs into eve you alienate the Veterans."


"It seems like in order to bring NEW PLAYERS into eve you alienate the PROBLEMS. "

FTFY
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-12-02 18:37:55 UTC
As much as I will like not having to worry about clone costs any more, CCP seems to have overlooked the strategic and tactical implications this change will have.

CCP has unwittingly undone a positive combat change implemented with Phoebe with this move.
With Phoebe, because you can no longer remotely move your deathclone, it was possible to incap station medical services (made easier with Phoebe), which would prevent any smart player from undocking again if they had gotten killed and podded.

This is something that would be pretty useful given the hideous state of sov warfare, especially with several hundred combatants in the system, and now it will be gone.
King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#88 - 2014-12-02 18:40:46 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:


The point being that, in this case, there is no reason to wait for the new mechanic before removing the old one becuse the old one has no net benefit to anyone.


That makes no sense, mechanics don't have to have net benefits to anyone. A game with nothing but beneficial mechanisms is not worth playing.

Net penalties are just as important.



Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2014-12-02 18:40:55 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
As much as I will like not having to worry about clone costs any more, CCP seems to have overlooked the strategic and tactical implications this change will have.

CCP has unwittingly undone a positive combat change implemented with Phoebe with this move.
With Phoebe, because you can no longer remotely move your deathclone, it was possible to incap station medical services (made easier with Phoebe), which would prevent any smart player from undocking again if they had gotten killed and podded.

This is something that would be pretty useful given the hideous state of sov warfare, especially with several hundred combatants in the system, and now it will be gone.

This would have meant more if it were possible to incap NPC 0.0 medical services.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#90 - 2014-12-02 18:43:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.

Agreed — and removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made.


Unfortunately it doesn't actually improve anything. No new gameplay, choices or benefits are created with the removal.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2014-12-02 18:46:15 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Querns wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.

Agreed — and removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made.


Unfortunately it doesn't actually improve anything. No new gameplay, choices or benefits are created with the removal.


Sure it does — it allows people with large amounts of SP to more readily fly smaller, more vulnerable ships. You benefit from not having to have this little bit of pointless domain knowledge at the forefront of your mind every time you die. You benefit from not losing SP due to forgetting a pointless thing.

There is no mastery involved with clone costs. They are just a thing you have to remember to do in an environment with no time or financial pressure.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Adunh Slavy
#92 - 2014-12-02 18:48:43 UTC
For those that do not like this change, because you are of the opinion that it makes Eve too easy, feel free to send me the ISK that you would have had to pay before the change any time you are podded. I will hold that ISK in escrow for you for ever and ever, then for you, Eve can be just as difficult as before and the rest of us no-fee pod scrubs can bask in your elite glory.

No, don't like that solution ... what are you arguing again?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#93 - 2014-12-02 18:49:06 UTC
As a pod who's lost a lot of SP to inattention I'm pretty happy about this change.

Now if only we could salvage implant components from frozen corpses...

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Adunh Slavy
#94 - 2014-12-02 18:52:31 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
In regards to the comments on making clones player created, and looking at how attributes and implants work. We are definitely looking at those kinds of things and we'll see where they go. We will be looking at removing unnecessary complexity, while keeping or adding to the depth of the mechanics.



Player made implants, from harvesting raw materials, intermediate processing and final good are where it is at. There should be a minimum of three levels of production, four would be ideal, five would be pushing it. Mix in new resources and old.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
#95 - 2014-12-02 18:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Beledia Ilphukiir
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:


The point being that, in this case, there is no reason to wait for the new mechanic before removing the old one becuse the old one has no net benefit to anyone.


That makes no sense, mechanics don't have to have net benefits to anyone. A game with nothing but beneficial mechanisms is not worth playing.

Net penalties are just as important.

A penalty for its own sake is just pointless punishment. A penalty as part of a conscious game design can be a good thing and provide for interesting gameplay. The old system was always a bad system, but it did have mitigating circumstances. Mainly the ISK sink and the prevention of free teleportation through podding. The problem with it now is, that the ISK sink could always be transferred to better gameplay systems and easy teleportation to the destination of your choice got nerfed. Basically at the moment the minor mitigating points have been largely removed, while the downsides are still there. The whole system is now nothing but a cancerous growth with little purpose and no enjoyment, so there is no reason to preserve it anymore. A new system maybe be build where it once stood, but getting rid of the old one is a good change no matter if those plans ever come to fruition or not.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-12-02 18:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
I swear if in the next dev blog you say "We are removing pirate implant sets because they make it to hard for new players to fight against older players" or something along those lines...

You had better not. I can't say just how awesome the different playstyles garnered by the pirate implant sets are. Love being fast tackle? Snakes. In an armor BS? Slaves. Soloing in a Maelstrom? Crystals. Speaking of pirate implants, if you rename them "Modified 'Snake' Navigation Implant Alpha" or something stupid like that, I'll be crushed. The iconic pirate implant sets need to stay as they are, they are probably the best part of all the implants that can be used currently.

If anything, introduce new ones...or introduce implants for stuff that should exist, EG drone damage implants.

Also, if you remove death penalties altogether, then it wouldn't really feel right.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#97 - 2014-12-02 18:59:41 UTC
Querns wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Querns wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.

Agreed — and removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made.


Unfortunately it doesn't actually improve anything. No new gameplay, choices or benefits are created with the removal.


Sure it does — it allows people with large amounts of SP to more readily fly smaller, more vulnerable ships. You benefit from not having to have this little bit of pointless domain knowledge at the forefront of your mind every time you die. You benefit from not losing SP due to forgetting a pointless thing.

There is no mastery involved with clone costs. They are just a thing you have to remember to do in an environment with no time or financial pressure.


There was no such obstacle before, clone costs have never been connected to ship size by any game mechanic.

I don't benefit from not having to remember to upgrade my clone, earlier I did benefit from remembering it.





Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#98 - 2014-12-02 19:00:36 UTC
The people who are equating standings loss for running missions to having to update your clone are forgetting one critical thing: When you lose standings for one group, you're gaining standings with another group. Often, changes to standings are reflected across multiple factions. Getting a +% under Amarr also gives a +% for Caldari, Khanid, and Ammatar, while giving a -% for Gallente and Minmatar (among other less-notable factions). You are also gaining ISK and, if you're missioning as opposed to ratting, you're gaining LP. Increasing standings with one group can also give you access to jump clones and lower taxes, a trade-off for the risk of lowering your standings with other groups.

With clone upgrades, there is no option. You upgrade, or you put a significant amount of time in jeopardy without having any sort of reward other than not having wasted two weeks' time. There is no benefit to clone upgrades, there is only a drawback if you don't do so. With standings, there are benefits to having higher standings, and you have to make a decision regarding whether or not those benefits are worth having lowered standings with another faction. With clone upgrades, all you get is "I either upgrade and keep the SP that I currently have, or I don't upgrade and will very likely lose two weeks' training."

There is no benefit gained because you already have the SP. There is only a drawback. That isn't a true choice, whereas taking a hit to standings with one group to gain standings with another group is an actual choice.
King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#99 - 2014-12-02 19:04:50 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
For those that do not like this change, because you are of the opinion that it makes Eve too easy, feel free to send me the ISK that you would have had to pay before the change any time you are podded. I will hold that ISK in escrow for you for ever and ever, then for you, Eve can be just as difficult as before and the rest of us no-fee pod scrubs can bask in your elite glory.

No, don't like that solution ... what are you arguing again?


It's not about the ISK, clone costs are trivial and literally nobody cares about them. However, the fear of losing skillpoints was not trivial, it was a horrible consequence for your own mistake. Now there's no fear anymore, you can lose your pod million times and it never means anything.

SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-12-02 19:09:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
As much as I will like not having to worry about clone costs any more, CCP seems to have overlooked the strategic and tactical implications this change will have.

CCP has unwittingly undone a positive combat change implemented with Phoebe with this move.
With Phoebe, because you can no longer remotely move your deathclone, it was possible to incap station medical services (made easier with Phoebe), which would prevent any smart player from undocking again if they had gotten killed and podded.

This is something that would be pretty useful given the hideous state of sov warfare, especially with several hundred combatants in the system, and now it will be gone.

This would have meant more if it were possible to incap NPC 0.0 medical services.



Hehe, suckers...Venal deployment best deployment