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Do high-sec carebears feel CCP considers them an important part of EVE?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2011-12-15 12:18:54 UTC
Intar Medris wrote:
Just in case you think Hi-sec is a carebear paradise look at your map. Using the function that shows you how many ships have meet the fate in combat. Then look dead center almost. See that really big orange blob. Yeah thats Jita, Usaully a 1,000 ships or more per day get blown to bits. No take a look null, might need a micoscope for this, all the Null Sec, and Low sec systems combined don't match up to Jita in terms of pew pew. Count in the rest of High Sec, and well null sec looks like the plac to be if you're a carebear. There hasn't been a Null Sec war worth any mention in years. Biggest thing that has happened out is that Atlas just simply vanished. If you are a true carebear Null is where you want to be. Why because they tend to keep their industry guys nested deep inside side Null where nothing really happens unless crap hit the fan by the truckload. By then the carebears have hauled ass back to high sec or the nearest blue.



Fine rhetoric; the boring truth of the matter though, is that nullsec, with ~11% of the population, sees about 3.5x as many PvP ship kills as hi-sec with ~80% of the population. However, hi-sec sees about the same number of PvE losses as null sees PvP losses.

We can therefore make the naive calculation that a character in nullsec is approximately 25-30x more likely to lose a ship to another player than a character in hi-sec. Obviously various factors complicate such a simplistic equation, but the sheer size of the difference in base risk does, I think, at least partly justify calling hi-sec a "carebear wonderland" in comparison.

See here for the data: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902&find=unread

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#22 - 2011-12-15 15:14:58 UTC
The whole debate is useless.

Some people just can't accept that there are other who don't play the way they want them to play.

Instead of caring so darn much about other people's playstyle they should look at their own playstyle.
I for one don't give a rats arse about how other's play the game, why should I. Does it interfere with the way I play the game? No it doesn't, it only does if I let them interfere myself.

But advocating changes to the game to force people in a certain direction only shows the inability to accept that people are different.
When I go High Sec I use another playstyle than when I am in low sec or null sec. Simply because the way I play in High doesn't work in null and visa versa.
Should that mean that either null or high needs to be adjusted to suit me instead of me adjusting to the situation?
Ofcourse it shouldn't

Those who advocate that EVE is a sandbox and everyone should be able to do what they want should also put action where their mouth yaps instead of declaring an undercover war on another part of EVE's gamestyle and mask it under a whole other concept.

By forcefully adjusting the game to suit one group more you make it unsuitable for another group.
When you feel the need to have one clear winner you will ultimatly also declare a clear loser. CCP should never ever give into that for the pure fact that they would go against the socalled sandbox concept they wanted EVE to be.
Tore Vest
#23 - 2011-12-15 16:11:25 UTC
The grass is allways greener on the other side of the fence Bear

No troll.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2011-12-15 19:12:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Intar Medris wrote:
Just in case you think Hi-sec is a carebear paradise look at your map. Using the function that shows you how many ships have meet the fate in combat. Then look dead center almost. See that really big orange blob. Yeah thats Jita, Usaully a 1,000 ships or more per day get blown to bits. No take a look null, might need a micoscope for this, all the Null Sec, and Low sec systems combined don't match up to Jita in terms of pew pew. Count in the rest of High Sec, and well null sec looks like the plac to be if you're a carebear. There hasn't been a Null Sec war worth any mention in years. Biggest thing that has happened out is that Atlas just simply vanished. If you are a true carebear Null is where you want to be. Why because they tend to keep their industry guys nested deep inside side Null where nothing really happens unless crap hit the fan by the truckload. By then the carebears have hauled ass back to high sec or the nearest blue.



Fine rhetoric; the boring truth of the matter though, is that nullsec, with ~11% of the population, sees about 3.5x as many PvP ship kills as hi-sec with ~80% of the population. However, hi-sec sees about the same number of PvE losses as null sees PvP losses.

We can therefore make the naive calculation that a character in nullsec is approximately 25-30x more likely to lose a ship to another player than a character in hi-sec. Obviously various factors complicate such a simplistic equation, but the sheer size of the difference in base risk does, I think, at least partly justify calling hi-sec a "carebear wonderland" in comparison.

See here for the data: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902&find=unread



You have to take into account that at any point on a weekend, there's probably some little skirmish of a few hundred people going on ... which is what they signed up for.

There's no real easy way to know though. From what I remember, it was "these are blues, they're cool ... those are neutral/red, send them home on the pod-express" ... and there wasn't so much of a public wardec on our heads. So we can't use that to filter out "people who died in a war" against "people who died roaming red space" or "people who died because of a roaming gang".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#25 - 2011-12-16 00:27:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Intar Medris wrote:
Just in case you think Hi-sec is a carebear paradise look at your map. Using the function that shows you how many ships have meet the fate in combat. Then look dead center almost. See that really big orange blob. Yeah thats Jita, Usaully a 1,000 ships or more per day get blown to bits. No take a look null, might need a micoscope for this, all the Null Sec, and Low sec systems combined don't match up to Jita in terms of pew pew. Count in the rest of High Sec, and well null sec looks like the plac to be if you're a carebear. There hasn't been a Null Sec war worth any mention in years. Biggest thing that has happened out is that Atlas just simply vanished. If you are a true carebear Null is where you want to be. Why because they tend to keep their industry guys nested deep inside side Null where nothing really happens unless crap hit the fan by the truckload. By then the carebears have hauled ass back to high sec or the nearest blue.



Fine rhetoric; the boring truth of the matter though, is that nullsec, with ~11% of the population, sees about 3.5x as many PvP ship kills as hi-sec with ~80% of the population. However, hi-sec sees about the same number of PvE losses as null sees PvP losses.

We can therefore make the naive calculation that a character in nullsec is approximately 25-30x more likely to lose a ship to another player than a character in hi-sec. Obviously various factors complicate such a simplistic equation, but the sheer size of the difference in base risk does, I think, at least partly justify calling hi-sec a "carebear wonderland" in comparison.

See here for the data: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40902&find=unread


I lived in Null Sec 3 months with my last toon. Made 10X more per hour mining, and was tucked away so damn deep inside null being ganked or pod killed was the least of my worries. Oh and local was lucky to have 10 people in it. Never saw a red, only saw the occasional neut, and only lost one ship... to a damn rat. So yeah null is a carebear "wonderland" if you are in a competent Alliance. Before null I lost 6 ships to griefers, and BS Hi sec war games. I also live in low sec. Never lost a ship, and could regularly jump 10 systems and not meet my doom. Connections made that possible. Unless PVP is your only activity in Null and Low sec you are hell of a lot less likely to lose a ship unless you are a dumbass.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-16 08:13:50 UTC
True story. I've lost one ship in null on a roam, one in low sec on a gate. All my other losses were i high sec. GAnking has always been a threat. Add my other toon and I have one more loss in low sc and LOTS in high sec. Ganking and griefing mostly.

Does CCP care? No.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2011-12-16 11:17:59 UTC
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
True story. I've lost one ship in null on a roam, one in low sec on a gate. All my other losses were i high sec. GAnking has always been a threat. Add my other toon and I have one more loss in low sc and LOTS in high sec. Ganking and griefing mostly.

Does CCP care? No.


Nor does anyone else care about your personal unverified anecdote, because they have access to years worth of hard data about the total situation.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Deltor Griffith
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-12-16 12:10:12 UTC
"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-12-16 15:23:27 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The idea that one must be ">" than the other is outmoded, divisive thinking. It leads to such arrant nonsense as people supposing that what is good for hi-sec is necessarily bad for null, and vice-versa, when in reality, improving hi-sec (and by "improving" I mean making those activities more fun, not increasing the ISK that can be ground per wallet flash) is nothing but good for null, and vice versa.

Both should be valid playstyles, able to cater to a variety of playstyles that span the spectrum of risk:reward from greater to lesser. Lo-sec too.



Whilst I agree with you Malcanis, if you're looking at criteria, then you can have some areas better than others.

stupid quick examples from my own experiences:

overall feeling "safe" to do stuff (usually just passing through)
hisec & soverign null > w-space/NPC null > low

fights without worrying about stupid NPC consequences
null/w-space > empire

fights without "surprise!" (or at least limited surprises)
w-space > k-space

not having to deal with too many politics
hisec > low/w-space/null

overall balance of the above:
w-space/null > hisec > low


Now, it's a very quick list and built from my own experiences. However, the overall "is better than" list is broken. It really should read that w-space/null is on top, followed by low, followed by hi. BUT that is not to say that hi is worthless and shouldn't continue to be balanced.

IMHO, hisec is "too safe" for people, and really does them a dis-service in that they don't really get involved with EVE. Yes, there are and always will be the types who don't want to go lower than 0.5, or that don't want to go higher than 0.4 and that's totally cool. The best fix to this would likely be blurring 0.9 to 0.1 better -- so that there aren't any real "steps" anymore

Currently, this is a rough list of how the system sec works:
1.0 -0.9 --> no rats, nothing really useful
0.8 --> rats introduced
0.7 - 0.5 --> progressively harder rats
0.4 --> no concord, welcome to supercaps online.
0.3 - 0.1 --> progressively harder NPCs, moongoo extraction.
0.0 --> Nice system, we'll take it.


What if the lines were a little blurrier
1.0 --> no changes
0.9 --> rats introduced
0.8 - 0.7 --> no changes
0.6 - 0.5 --> remove CONCORD, replace with navies (navies can be avoided, system rules otherwise unchanged)
0.4 --> no navy, welcome to supercaps online
0.3 - 0.1 --> no changes
0.0 --> no changes
in 0.9 - 0.0, reduce the respawn timers on rocks (no more of this once/day stuff).

Now, slow down CONCORD in 0.9 - 0.7 systems, essentially to what happens in 0.5 or 0.6 now (20-30 sec or so). Have the navies work in waves, with the waves showing up in the same timelines as CONCORD (20-30 sec)

first wave -- normal navy ships (IIRC, no scrams)
second wave -- scrams brought in
third wave -- enough DPS to concordokken you if you're still alive.

With that then, you can choose to sit around through the first wave and GTFO just as the second is coming in (so about a minute). If you run from the navy, you have 15 minutes to bounce around the system before the gates/stations let you pass. Now, since you're running from the Navy, they won't bother with the "waves" as you're running around. You'll have 20 sec or less to re-enter warp after you've landed at a celestial or safespot before the CONCORDOKKEN fleet arrives. For those of you thinking "hey, i'll just safe up and cloak" -- the navy will cheat in this regard (i.e. see right through your cloak).


Yes, this means gankers can probably kill a few hulks and get away free and clear. This ALSO means that the hulks can have their own defence fleet who can gank you first (allowing the miners to GTFO), rather than sit and watch their mates DIAF.

I've been asking for this almost since I started.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#30 - 2011-12-16 17:17:46 UTC
Deltor Griffith wrote:
"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No...Pirate

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-12-16 17:18:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
True story. I've lost one ship in null on a roam, one in low sec on a gate. All my other losses were i high sec. GAnking has always been a threat. Add my other toon and I have one more loss in low sc and LOTS in high sec. Ganking and griefing mostly.

Does CCP care? No.


Nor does anyone else care about your personal unverified anecdote, because they have access to years worth of hard data about the total situation.


And what would those numbers be? Jita alone has a higher kill rate these days than most of null sec.Toss Amarr into the mix and it's clear that null sec is easy-mode for EVE. Just use the stats in the EVE in-game map or just go to Dotlan.

Actually, null IS easy mode for EVE. Home to the truest carebearing in the game. Still, people won't come play with you. Hmmm, must be something other than the game mechanics. What could it be? OH! It's you. It's nothing other than null sec's own population that keeps people from going to null. CCP can't make null sec have better players.

If you're ganking in high sec then you've left null sec for better a better game experience. High sec agrees with you. Null sec is crap.
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#32 - 2011-12-16 17:18:44 UTC
Deltor Griffith wrote:
"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.


I think the reason so many new subscribers, this means never ever played EVE at all, quit after a few months is they find themselves losing ships that take weeks to earn the ISK. The fashion of these explosions vary, but the top three usually are . They decide to check out low sec 2. BS Hi Sec war games 3. Ganking because someone sucks at actual PVP.

Not everyone wants to stay a carebear forever. Most are just buying time and learning how the game works. EVE is incredibly dynamic. It's climate changes constantly. One day Goons is ganking miners, the next they get bored and pack up to head back to null. EVE unlike most MMOs isn't all about SP. It actually requires you too think. Unlike WOW where you spend hours mindlessy hacking and slashing. PVP is a major part of EVE, but EVE isn't pure PVP like so many claim. If it was then ISK wouldn't be a factor, and missions, mining, and the Market wouldn't exsist.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-12-16 17:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Intar Medris wrote:
Deltor Griffith wrote:
"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.
...Not everyone wants to stay a carebear forever. Most are just buying time and learning how the game works. EVE is incredibly dynamic. It's climate changes constantly. One day Goons is ganking miners, the next they get bored and pack up to head back to null. EVE unlike most MMOs isn't all about SP. It actually requires you too think. Unlike WOW where you spend hours mindlessy hacking and slashing. PVP is a major part of EVE, but EVE isn't pure PVP like so many claim. If it was then ISK wouldn't be a factor, and missions, mining, and the Market wouldn't exsist.


Agreed. It would just be a bunch of armed starter camps and a wide open sandbox.

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-12-16 18:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Intar Medris wrote:
Deltor Griffith wrote:
"Carebares" in Eve Online is a minority. Everyone burns out staying in High Sec sooner or later.
...Not everyone wants to stay a carebear forever. Most are just buying time and learning how the game works. EVE is incredibly dynamic. It's climate changes constantly. One day Goons is ganking miners, the next they get bored and pack up to head back to null. EVE unlike most MMOs isn't all about SP. It actually requires you too think. Unlike WOW where you spend hours mindlessy hacking and slashing. PVP is a major part of EVE, but EVE isn't pure PVP like so many claim. If it was then ISK wouldn't be a factor, and missions, mining, and the Market wouldn't exsist.


I think the biggest problem with 0.0 is that it's 0.0. Not because the concept sucks but because humans are humans and despite the wishes of CCP and some of the gamer base, even in null-sec people are carving out space for themselves and when they are at a comfortable point, they carebear out and settle down a bit to protect their borders and make money--which is utterly and completely normal and realistic but not conducive to the idea of a 24/7/365 blowout combat-fest.

The more realistic EVE becomes, the more it will resemble "real life." That's just how it is.

In terms of what CCP seeks for EVE to be as a sandbox:

When you win, you lose.

Steamroll an individual competitor until they can no longer resist: Protect your borders and settle down to repair and renew. Can't spread too far too fast or individual units can be neutralized. As has been pointed out elsewhere, transportation technology in EVE makes the "vast distances" not really vast and much of the technique used in real life military action is not applicable here due the insanely fast speed with which people can move their units.

(The importance of maneuver in the military cannot possibly be overstated and these great speeds do, in a sense, encourage blob warfare.)

Steamroll the competition until it's just you: 100% chance of infighting, revolution and secession and constant clean up--just like in Real Life, or worse, none of the above.Ugh

(Sociology types feel free to jump in with the correct jargon.)

Sorry but much of null-sec will be a lot like high-sec because that is just how humans are and it would be nice if CCP HTFU, accepted this and took this into account. There can be pvp and pirates and ganking and scams and all of that---and all of the rest as well.

On the whole I think Malcanis thread is moving in a good direction.
I think what we currently call "low-sec" is the metaphorical and literal place for the PVEers and PVPers to meet.
I think there should be npc system patrols where there is a high enough security level to have npcs.
I agree that there could be a bit more granularity in security response.
I still want 1.0 npc podkills!Pirate

CCP needs to fly me in for the summit: Thredd Necro for CSM!!! (Really...>.>)

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-12-16 18:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pavel Bidermann
There are a lot of casual players who just log in every once in a while so mission running is a good thing for them. I hate mission running. I hate it no matter what level systems I'm in. Ratting gets boring too. Null gets paid a lot more for it's ratting via anoms and sanctums, but that's still just mission running and ratting, even if null pilots don't want to think of it that way.

I solo-mined for almost 2 years in EVE. I did finally want to try some different things, but frankly, they seem to be either the same thing in a different place or just pointless. PVP? Done it and don't care really. I like exploration since it's always something different.

Now market PVP, that's the stuff. Being mostly a loner Ican't make the huge amounts of money, but it's the challenge. When EVE-metrics was still around I would information mine and try to expand remote markets. Pretty challenging to get the right combo of items and ships for what's being used.

Both sides of a war buying from me? Honey badger don't care! Made good money on wars, but it was the strategies of the market that were the best part. I mined steadily so I could increase my profit margin. Good times.

People just stay in high sec until they can get into null? Nope. There's simply a better game in high sec. Want people to go to null? Make null a better game. CCP can't fix the players though.

I checked out the numbers on ship kills provided by CCP. First off, I always look to CCP for completely honest disclosure of information.....P
Second, the bulk of the numbers go back to 2007, when null sec used to fight wars. Second, the numbers centered on the new ships are primarily people trying new stuff, so you have to look for things to settle out. That's all assuming these numbers are accurate, since the logs show nothing on a pretty regular basis.Lol

Quarterly report anyone?
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#36 - 2011-12-16 20:30:49 UTC
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
There are a lot of casual players who just log in every once in a while so mission running is a good thing for them. I hate mission running. I hate it no matter what level systems I'm in. Ratting gets boring too. Null gets paid a lot more for it's ratting via anoms and sanctums, but that's still just mission running and ratting, even if null pilots don't want to think of it that way.

I solo-mined for almost 2 years in EVE. I did finally want to try some different things, but frankly, they seem to be either the same thing in a different place or just pointless. PVP? Done it and don't care really. I like exploration since it's always something different.

Now market PVP, that's the stuff. Being mostly a loner Ican't make the huge amounts of money, but it's the challenge. When EVE-metrics was still around I would information mine and try to expand remote markets. Pretty challenging to get the right combo of items and ships for what's being used.

Both sides of a war buying from me? Honey badger don't care! Made good money on wars, but it was the strategies of the market that were the best part. I mined steadily so I could increase my profit margin. Good times.

People just stay in high sec until they can get into null? Nope. There's simply a better game in high sec. Want people to go to null? Make null a better game. CCP can't fix the players though.

I checked out the numbers on ship kills provided by CCP. First off, I always look to CCP for completely honest disclosure of information.....P
Second, the bulk of the numbers go back to 2007, when null sec used to fight wars. Second, the numbers centered on the new ships are primarily people trying new stuff, so you have to look for things to settle out. That's all assuming these numbers are accurate, since the logs show nothing on a pretty regular basis.Lol

Quarterly report anyone?


If CCP released a Q report on PVP I don't think would be to happy. It would only prove what people have been saying for the last year. That Null has become a carebear paradise where you can make 20-30 mil an hour in relative safety. Null Sec might as well be called blue sec. Everyone is friends and any PVP that occurs is usually for giggles.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-12-16 20:48:08 UTC
I think the quarterly report would show a lot of things, thus it was stopped.
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-12-16 20:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Intar Medris wrote:
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
There are a lot of casual players who just log in every once in a while so mission running is a good thing for them. I hate mission running. I hate it no matter what level systems I'm in. Ratting gets boring too. Null gets paid a lot more for it's ratting via anoms and sanctums, but that's still just mission running and ratting, even if null pilots don't want to think of it that way.

I solo-mined for almost 2 years in EVE. I did finally want to try some different things, but frankly, they seem to be either the same thing in a different place or just pointless. PVP? Done it and don't care really. I like exploration since it's always something different.

Now market PVP, that's the stuff. Being mostly a loner Ican't make the huge amounts of money, but it's the challenge. When EVE-metrics was still around I would information mine and try to expand remote markets. Pretty challenging to get the right combo of items and ships for what's being used.

Both sides of a war buying from me? Honey badger don't care! Made good money on wars, but it was the strategies of the market that were the best part. I mined steadily so I could increase my profit margin. Good times.

People just stay in high sec until they can get into null? Nope. There's simply a better game in high sec. Want people to go to null? Make null a better game. CCP can't fix the players though.

I checked out the numbers on ship kills provided by CCP. First off, I always look to CCP for completely honest disclosure of information.....P
Second, the bulk of the numbers go back to 2007, when null sec used to fight wars. Second, the numbers centered on the new ships are primarily people trying new stuff, so you have to look for things to settle out. That's all assuming these numbers are accurate, since the logs show nothing on a pretty regular basis.Lol

Quarterly report anyone?


If CCP released a Q report on PVP I don't think would be to happy. It would only prove what people have been saying for the last year. That Null has become a carebear paradise where you can make 20-30 mil an hour in relative safety. Null Sec might as well be called blue sec. Everyone is friends and any PVP that occurs is usually for giggles.


Null-sec was always destined to become a sort of carebear paradise. People generally don't build empires because they want to KEEP fighting, they build them so they can STOP fighting and collect taxes and tributes and relax and have a beer/mine/research/produce in the interior...Bear

An environment like truly open null-sec will almost always become like high-sec given the time and resources. Did no one think of this when they were planning this game?Shocked

P.S. Where is my summit ticket, CCP?

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-12-16 21:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pavel Bidermann
Actually, Thredd makes a very good point. Ultimately that would be the outcome.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-12-16 23:02:09 UTC
Actually, I'm pretty certain that's entirely as designed. Gain space, settle down, grow soft, get attacked. The cycle of life continues.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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