Player Features and Ideas Discussion

We don't really need to see the Afktar get any better.

Bad idea. Unless you're using missile launchers for FoFs, aggressive drones are the only DPS to guard against jamming. Bear in mind some missions have obscene levels of jamming. -1

The idea of limiting the Ishtar to 4 sentries is a very good one, for the reasons stated. +1

the problem is you actually believe what you are saying

1. Drones would only be protected by armor if *gasp* they were inside the armor.
2. No one has said anything, to my knowledge, about lowering the HP of Ishtars or their drones so you seem to be a bit confused. If you meant same HP, lower DPS, and still having killable weapon systems... Well, that's called balancing when a cruiser can use Battleship sized weapons (sentries) at long range and while jammed (drone assist) and scooting around at high speed. If you see nothing wrong with that, I am sure you would have no problem with me fitting cruise missiles onto my Cerb.
3. You can already toss your sentries into racks, it's called your drone bay. If you meant mounting them as effective weapons though, well I suppose the equivalent would be fitting artillery but that would be less effective since you would have to worry about fitting costs, ammo, tracking, jamming, or even controlling your own weapons instead of letting 1 ship have the massed alpha of a gangs worth of deployed artillery platforms.

If you think " just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship" is an "acceptable compromise", can we revisit me fitting cruise missiles to my Cerb? Seems like an acceptable compromise to the drivel that was your attempt at input. Allow me to demonstrate how it should be done.

Hello all, I do not have a lot of experience with Ishtars, I am not highly spec'd in the Gallente line, but I have encountered them in PvP. My impression was that a gang of Ishtars, flown as they typically are, is the next best thing to ISBoxing a gang of Ishtars. They, seemingly, get a warp in, drop drones, establish orbits and then assist their drones. It seems that the only thing they have to do is watch for significant range changes, watch for someone taking too much damage, and occasionally shift the drone assistance if someone is jammed. Sounds mildly harder than running incursions.
In my opinion, it seems like there are counters to such a doctrine, however that is like saying that enough cruisers can counter a cap fleet. It seems like it might be reasonable to limit Ishtars to 4 sentries, this would bring their DPS back into line with their hull size without over-gimping them.

Now, Anhenka, if you would care to take off the stupid cap and put on your thinking one, maybe you can try again.

You could always use that rack of empty high slots to fit utility which most non drone ships can't as they have guns/launcher there. It's not like you don't have at least some free fittings on the ship with an empty rack of highs.

The Ishtar will still do and apply more DPS than the other HACs after the loss of one drone. Not to mention that I left the drone bay unchanged- so still plenty of spare drones available. The DPS is destructible- but that's damage not being applied to the Ishtar.

Your posts seem mainly sensible so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, I hope I'm right.

Here is a sample ishtar I've fought in the field


[Ishtar - Ishtar]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Internal Force Field Array I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II



Now I'm sure people will point out the lack of tackle to which I retort - naturally, but the ishtars don't present problems until they enter fleet territory where tackle is either provided, or not required.

Fast. Neuts. Ewar immune. Can control the field of movement independent of weapon tracking. Tanky. Affordable. DPS in low battleship league. MWD sig bonus. 100+km no fly zone.

Show me another ship that can do that in one fit....


Again, small gang they're less of an issue, brawling is fine and balanced too - hence the direction of the changes I've suggested previously. I don't want that area to change - I want to hurt the fleet ishtar and get some fitting compromises on it. This can be done with seriously hurting small gang/brawling ishtars without much grief.

So... +500% heavy drone range at level 5, + another 25km to drone control.... whut? Maybe you meant heavy drone velocity? I'd be ok with that, if it got its bandwidth reduced to 100mb.

Ishtars!

Firstly, I think one of the issues that is being overlooked here is that there's simply no way for any armor fleet to hold down ishtars, especially in low sec.

Only max-linked, faction-fit recons can tackle out to the ishtar's general range of 70-100km. But at 70km, bouncers tear the arazu and rapier apart, since they have crap for explosive resistance. I think a *slight* buff to the tank of armor-fit recons (IE, 1 extra low slot each, at the expense of 1 high slot), or even a balancing of their resistance profiles, would help.

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That being said, I think the MOST reasonable, pinpointed solution is a sizeable nerf to sentry tracking. With the 25% bonus from the ship hull, Gardes track at .045. That's almost as high as Void and Null in unbonused large neutron IIs (.048).

Let's compare some stats (Max skills, unbonused hulls):
1x 425mm rail II w/ CN antimatter: .0126 tracking, 36km+30km opt+falloff, 316 damage, 46 dps.
1x tachyon beam II w/ IN multi: .0174 tracking @ 33+25, 472 damage, 52 dps.
1x 1400 II w/ RF EMP: .01125 tracking @ 30+43, 1117 damage, 39 dps.

1x Garde II: .036 @ 30+18, 244 damage, 56 dps
1x Curator II: .0276 @ 52+12, 211 damage, 52.8 dps
1x Bouncer II: .0192 tracking @ 52+48, 198 damage, 49.5 dps

So the bouncer has better tracking, optimal, and falloff than all 3 of the largest racial guns, with a higher dps than 2 of 3.

Due to the strong DPS alone, only a large-weapon ship with more than 5 large turrets stands a chance in projection, and other large-weapon ships have far weaker tracking.

I don't like the idea of a straight-up nerf to the ishtar. It's a fun boat to fly, and I like its potential niche as the only large-weapon HAC. I think the issue is that it applies damage too well at too broad a range, simply making it the best choice (only choice) in far too many situations.

Its raw DPS is not overwhelming; it is on par with other HACs, and can easily be outgunned by ABCs. Its projection, however, is absurd compared to the other HACs.

Thus I think the real issue is sentry tracking. I think that (like ABCs, which I think are currently well-balanced), large weapon systems should be VERY RELIANT on tracking modules in order to apply their raw damage to Battlecruisers and smaller.

Think of it this way: Ishtar is the only HAC that can use a large weapon system (within reason!). Shouldn't it, therefore, be nearly incapable of applying damage to other HACs? HACs are "supposed" to be a counter to large weapon systems, aren't they?

EDIT: So my ultimate recommendation is this:

A combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship.

drakes power has always been in its tank , which barely got touched, HML's only needed a slight nerf too its tracking of small ships really and maybe a little range.

it still outperforms the ferox bar, the rail ferox setup, which is a shame .. making the drake more caracal like would have made more sense, less tank, remove the resist bonus, for more mobility and better projection..
changing the ABC's into T2 would allow for the brutix, drake, harbinger and hurricane too become proper ABC's