Ships & Modules

Not really. Compare - the stabber's a pretty good solo boat. It's terrible as a line ship for anything bigger than a very small gang. Does that make it a broken ship? No. It's just different.

Do you really think a single Nano makes up for the lack of web or cap booster ?

And are you really just going to ignore the fact that 90% of Vagas and Cynas use a defensive neut, and in the case of the Cyna either a defensive web or a neut or even both ?

Mizhir, people keep bringing up the navy Omen but I understand that ship is in a good place and same with the Slicer.

I am talking about the Tech 1 cruisers which are consistently outclassed or equaled in every role. They don't shine in any one particular area, except for a brick tanked Maller which is kind of cool I guess.

Matari gun cruisers and CBC only have 4 mids and shield tank

HACs vaga has 4 med slots with an active sheilding bonus, and T2 sheild resist, munnin has 3 slots with a T2 resist profile in it's shields

navy harbinger has more mids than both hurricanes

hell the tempest and the phoon only have 5

oh and LOL the wolf, T2 sheild resist.... HAS 2 MIDS


not going to lie, ACs really need the lows to work, and tank isn't really the matari's strong suit.

but the munnin and wolf really need some mids.

Btw, here is a good setup for Maller to prove my point versys the solo plate Ruppy:

60K EHP (77/71/70/65)
465 DPS (Gleam) / 285 (Aurora) (22KM+1.2KM)
1200m/s Speed
Cap Stable 67%



[Maller, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
Medium Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 400

Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Quad Light Beam Laser II, Gleam M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones of choice.

So, you are flying Executioners and like the laser-power on range, huh? And totally make it work with only 3 mids, yeah?

Then tell me, if the Omen is the upgrade to the Executioner, why would you need 4 midslots?


The Thorax is an upgrade to the Incursus, which is a Brawler. When solo brawling, midslots count. As such, it's pretty cool to have a 4th mid on a Thorax, or Vexor.
Both these ships can also kite, in which case, most of the time they will utilize this midslot for ... tank. Or, as you pointed out, a defensive web, which is cool, since they're not the fastest cruisers. Fast, but not the fastest.

The Omen, however, is among the fastest cruisers, together with the Stabber, which has 4 midslots.
The Stabber also has horrible DPS, and the 4th mid sure as hell wont help with that, other than fitting a Shieldtank so you don't waste 2 or 3 of your precious lowslots on an armor tank.


Also, not want to burn you here, but feeling the need for a defensive web or utility highslot for a neut kinda creates the impression that you're not trusting your piloting and decision making skills, and need more fail-safe-stuff.


Key to being a good pilot is knowing your weakspots, and do your very best in not allowing your enemies to capitalize on them.
As such, when you can't defend against a frigate that has come into tackle range, your goal is not 'having a web to help with this', your goal is to not let it happen.

If the first frigate that get's a scram on you isn't gotten rid of in the next 3-5 seconds, you're most likely eating a second scram. And a third. And a notification that your friendly Insurance Company knows how bad you just fcked things up.


The Omen, with it's 3 midslots, is probably the best kiting cruiser in the T1 lineup, and for fleets, can also happily flown like a thorax can be: As a brawler. With one more Lowslot, which is what you want in a fleet of armor brawlers, not another mid.

Not everything you learn in FW Frigate Combat has to be emphasized on at cruiser level and above.


Look at the NOmen. Look at it. 3 mids, one utility high, and enough grid to put a small neut in there. A SMALL NEUT!
If you think a small Neutralizer will help you fight the frigates off, than god bless you, and you'll need his blessing!

And still, the NOmen currently is the kiting cruiser.

Depends on how you are and how you define kiting.

Obviously Neut II's are 12,600m and Web II's are 10,000m with no bonuses applied to either. Faction mods have modified optimal ranges on both, but assuming most are not pimping out that hard in PvP, you're going to want to kite outside of web range for maximum effect. Otherwise, you're going to be webbed and neuted by your opponent if you are kiting within 13,000m mark and your opponent is overheating.

That said, kiting outside of 14,000m or above is well outside your web and neut range, but still within warp disruption 24,000m or 28,800m overheated range and ideally gun and drone range. In this case, I find it hard to believe you will be using your web and neuts 90% of the time unless there are bonuses applied to do so. That's mainly because you are not in range to kite without being snared by your opponents web too.

If that is the case, there should be no issue for a ship with no web or neuts to kite well for as long as they can keep a safe distance outside their opponents web and neut range. When they are not, then it's perfectly balance in my eyes because the counter to a kiting setup should always be a close range setup with tackle enabled such as web and neutralizers. So what the problem is?

Secondary or More Targets

In other cases such as a secondary opponent tackling you, then yes a defensive web and neut will come in handy if the target is small and agile. Web is going to obviously give you the opportunity to pop them where neut is going to give you the opportunity to escape the snare.

However, that's not 90% of the time when you are kiting. If you're facing two or more opponents, especially a cruiser not fit for kiting and a frigate fit for tackling, you're going to have a hard time escaping that initial tackle from the frigate without that primary cruiser MWD on top of you to apply a secondary web and scram.

I mean, it's not impossible of course. I've escaped numerous tackle attempts when kiting in a cruiser with just a defensive neut. But, that does not mean a frigate is not going to get one or two cycles on you before you jet out either. It all depends how good that primary target is when the frigate gets those cycles on your ship. If they are super far behind, then you have a greater opportunity of escape. If they are within that 15KM line, then they may be able to MWD on top of you for the secondary scram and web thus killing you.

The below gets 400 dps if you OH the guns and add in the drone dps, but I don't think it's a good fleet fit. 2 ACRs just to fit the MWD, LSE and guns. That's get whomped by moas, and I think rail thoraxes and pulse omens. Fleet omen will be tankier (though likely slower), and the great optimal of scorch would be much more helpful). You'd get a cap booster on the omen as well, the below stabber has terrible cap.


[Stabber, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile

Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Warrior II x5



Compare to this:
[Omen, New Setup 2]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Valkyrie II x4

All fits with a 1% grid implant. Could swap out the optimal rig for more armour if you want no implants, I guess.


More dps and will apply it better too due to great optimal. Tankier, but yes slower. Not painfully slow though, faster than moas for example. And that's just something I through together quickly in EFT, I'm sure there are better set-ups out there.

A Thorax can do anything an Omen can do at any range + it has extra utility in mid slots

hahahahahahahaha

bro

just stop already

my sides cant take much more

but seriously. at kiting range the thorax NEEDS rails, at brawl range the thorax NEEDS blasters. where as the omen just needs pulses.

a thorax CANNOT do everything an omen can. DIFFERENT ships are DIFFERENT.