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[Ship Proposal] Skiff is overpowered & needs a rebalance.

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#141 - 2014-11-29 14:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I've heared that CODE failed to gank a Mackinaw with 2 Catalyst a couple of days back. Mackinaw tank is overpowered and it needs a nerf in yield, tank and agility. Roll

Honestly, however, what is the problem with the Skiff? Bring 7 Catalyst and your kill mail is still ISK positive. There's no need to nerf anything on the Skiff. What needs a nerf, however, is the effeminacy of the EVE players.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#142 - 2014-11-29 14:45:41 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I've heared that CODE failed to gank a Mackinaw with 2 Catalyst a couple of days back. Mackinaw tank is overpowered and it needs a nerf in yield, tank and agility. Roll

Honestly, however, what is the problem with the Skiff? Bring 7 Catalyst and your kill mail is still ISK positive. There's no need to nerf anything on the Skiff. What needs a nerf, however, is the effeminacy of the EVE players.


Lift the needle off the record.

The code guys didn't assess the fittings and location then did they. The Mackinaw follows CCPs role based ship principles currently and doesn't need iterating.

My proposal is not about destroying Skiffs. It is about balancing of the Skiff. As I'm a woman as well I take offence at your effeminacy remark as well. Shocked
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#143 - 2014-11-29 14:46:36 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
CCP tends to looks at why players value one ship over another before they make balance changes, and that's why they buffed the skiff to begin with. The mack was simply the most used mining ship previously.

I personally think that the mack was highly valued by people using ISBoxer, and with the decline/banning of that software it could have an impact on the ship usage metrics. But skiffs are hard to gank, and they're suppose to be, and that is simply not going to change. Asking CCP to nerf them to the point that they're unusable at their role (which is mining) is senseless.


Read the OP first fully.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#144 - 2014-11-29 14:58:22 UTC
For Max Deveron:

Ore hold: The Skiff is largely used in a fleet with Orca/Freighter/hauler/MTU support so the size of the ore hold is not an issue. In fact as it is larger than the Hulks ore hold this make fleet use of the Skiff easier. This is a positive factor.

Drone damage bonus: This is obviously a positive as NPC rats can be despatched quicker. It can be used to deter attacks and jet can theft as well. This is a positive factor.

Tanking ability: The Skiff when fit properly can have an enormous tank making it difficult to be destroyed. This tank also enables the Skiff to be used in riskier sec status environments. This is a positive factor.

Mining yield: The Skiff can have equivalent or comparable mining yield to the Mackinaw which puts it in joint second place in the mining yield table. This is a positive factor.

I think there was one more positive factor regarding agility, speed, or tracking but I'm not sure which.

So as you can see there is not a negative whereas the other mining ships have positive & negative elements.

Short of tying it to a six inch nail and pushing it into your ear I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#145 - 2014-11-29 14:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I've heared that CODE failed to gank a Mackinaw with 2 Catalyst a couple of days back. Mackinaw tank is overpowered and it needs a nerf in yield, tank and agility. Roll

Honestly, however, what is the problem with the Skiff? Bring 7 Catalyst and your kill mail is still ISK positive. There's no need to nerf anything on the Skiff. What needs a nerf, however, is the effeminacy of the EVE players.


Lift the needle off the record.

The code guys didn't assess the fittings and location then did they. The Mackinaw follows CCPs role based ship principles currently and doesn't need iterating.

My proposal is not about destroying Skiffs. It is about balancing of the Skiff. As I'm a woman as well I take offence at your effeminacy remark as well. Shocked

Do I look like I care about someone taking offense on my comments? Roll

And indeed, they expected the Mackinaws to be just like any other Mackinaw they gank, which proves my point that this game is in dire need of nerfs to effeminacy/pampering of the players. Blink

However: Players have already been stripped of the choice about which ship they can bring into a belt by actions of other players. Every Hulk or Mackinaw you bring into a belt can be considered 85% a wreck. This is because of the gank initiatives of certain player cooperations. The Skiff is the only mining ship which compels effort and less "reward" from those who want to gank them. And now you want to strip players of yet another choice and leave them with only the Mackinaw and the Hulk for High sec mining because the Skiff is unusable in High sec and thus make ganking even easier than it already is? You want to reduce the choice from Some Mining, Dying, Dying to only Dying, Dying? That is perverted! Especially if you consider that all the reasons why the majority of the players uses Skiffs are the actions of other players. All Exhumers and Barges have their merits and uses from their stats, but players make the other 2 Exhumers/Barges unusable.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Thenoran
Tranquility Industries
#146 - 2014-11-29 15:20:05 UTC
Nerfing the yield on the Skiff will make it effectively useless at the one and only thing it is designed to do: Mining.

No matter how you see it, it is still an expensive Tech II medium sized ship with quite a few skill requirements.
Above all, Exhumers (and Mining Barges) are supposed to mine. They can't do anything else.
If they suck at mining, why bring one at all in the first place?

If the Skiff's yield is nerfed to the amount required in the OP (to a third), a Venture or any Battlecruiser/Battleship would outmine it.
Even at 70-80% of the current yield it would still have very little use as a Mining ship, which is again it's sole purpose in EVE.

It doesn't matter that it can bring a beastly tank if using one is highly inefficient at its intended job.
Keep in mind that a Rokh with 8 Modulated Deep Core Miner IIs and some Mining Upgrades will have an equal yield to the Skiff.
The only downside it has is no Ore Hold, but a MTU, Orca or Jetcan can remedy that.

Sacrifices are made when choosing a Skiff.
A Mackinaw has a massive ore hold, allowing more consistent mining without flying back and forth and a Hulk mines about 20-25% more quickly.
The Skiff has neither of these, trading both for having a tank.
That the Ore Hold has less value in a mining fleet is not a valid argument as most of the ganks are solo targets and a ship should not be nerfed purely on having a single attribute be less valuable in a fleet.

If it also has to sacrifice yield, there is no real point in flying one and the entire ship becomes useless as a result.
It has to be able to mine a good and decent amount AND have a tank at the same time to be a viable ship choice.
Why else fly a Skiff at all? If the yield sucks so badly, it becomes a better choice to just mine in a Hulk and pay for the costs of losing one every now and then with the additional income.

Players are choosing the Skiff as a natural response to being ganked.
They still want to mine (many of them solo as many of the ganks are solo targets) but don't want to get ganked again.
So they look up which ship could fill that role and find the Skiff (or the Procurer) and choose to fly that.

They adapt to the situation. Why punish players who are adapting to a threat by nerfing the only choice they really have?
If the Skiff is nerfed and miners decide to switch to a Rokh, will the Rokh need to be nerfed as well?

Forcing people back into Mackinaws and Hulks so they can be ganked again is not proper game balance.
People are adapting, do the same.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#147 - 2014-11-29 17:14:29 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
For Max Deveron:

Ore hold: The Skiff is largely used in a fleet with Orca/Freighter/hauler/MTU support so the size of the ore hold is not an issue. In fact as it is larger than the Hulks ore hold this make fleet use of the Skiff easier. This is a positive factor.

Drone damage bonus: This is obviously a positive as NPC rats can be despatched quicker. It can be used to deter attacks and jet can theft as well. This is a positive factor.

Tanking ability: The Skiff when fit properly can have an enormous tank making it difficult to be destroyed. This tank also enables the Skiff to be used in riskier sec status environments. This is a positive factor.

Mining yield: The Skiff can have equivalent or comparable mining yield to the Mackinaw which puts it in joint second place in the mining yield table. This is a positive factor.

I think there was one more positive factor regarding agility, speed, or tracking but I'm not sure which.

So as you can see there is not a negative whereas the other mining ships have positive & negative elements.

Short of tying it to a six inch nail and pushing it into your ear I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it.



Nope, you are still using the fleet mechanic. AND i said you are not allowed to. Now explain without using a FLEET.
If you can not do that.....then the post by Thenoran might be corect and your part of the problem of trying to get people to not use Skiffs so they are more gankable.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#148 - 2014-11-29 18:29:55 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
For Max Deveron:
Ore hold: The Skiff is largely used in a fleet with Orca/Freighter/hauler/MTU support so the size of the ore hold is not an issue. In fact as it is larger than the Hulks ore hold this make fleet use of the Skiff easier. This is a positive factor.


You are right, it is a positive factor if you ONLY look at the hulk. If you compare it to the mack, it becomes a negative factor. Because the cargohold of the Mack.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Drone damage bonus: This is obviously a positive as NPC rats can be despatched quicker. It can be used to deter attacks and jet can theft as well. This is a positive factor.


Since you are talking about highsec specifically here, when it comes to NPC rats, 5 unbonused light drones do it quick enough so no mining barge is ever threatened by NPCs. From there, it will take a skiff about 16 seconds to kill a catalyst, assuming perfect skills and whatnot, which means that in a 0.5 system it can kill 1 catalyst that is attempting to gank it. When it comes to can stealing, unless he decided to fit a point to it, the ninja hauler can be aligned when he steals from the can, so DPS is a non issue.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Tanking ability: The Skiff when fit properly can have an enormous tank making it difficult to be destroyed. This tank also enables the Skiff to be used in riskier sec status environments. This is a positive factor.


No arguments here, as this is the role of the skiff.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Mining yield: The Skiff can have equivalent or comparable mining yield to the Mackinaw which puts it in joint second place in the mining yield table. This is a positive factor.


So, it's a positive factor to be tied in last place? Most people would call that a negative factor.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#149 - 2014-11-29 18:52:35 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
For Max Deveron:
Ore hold: The Skiff is largely used in a fleet with Orca/Freighter/hauler/MTU support so the size of the ore hold is not an issue. In fact as it is larger than the Hulks ore hold this make fleet use of the Skiff easier. This is a positive factor.


You are right, it is a positive factor if you ONLY look at the hulk. If you compare it to the mack, it becomes a negative factor. Because the cargohold of the Mack.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Drone damage bonus: This is obviously a positive as NPC rats can be despatched quicker. It can be used to deter attacks and jet can theft as well. This is a positive factor.


Since you are talking about highsec specifically here, when it comes to NPC rats, 5 unbonused light drones do it quick enough so no mining barge is ever threatened by NPCs. From there, it will take a skiff about 16 seconds to kill a catalyst, assuming perfect skills and whatnot, which means that in a 0.5 system it can kill 1 catalyst that is attempting to gank it. When it comes to can stealing, unless he decided to fit a point to it, the ninja hauler can be aligned when he steals from the can, so DPS is a non issue.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Tanking ability: The Skiff when fit properly can have an enormous tank making it difficult to be destroyed. This tank also enables the Skiff to be used in riskier sec status environments. This is a positive factor.


No arguments here, as this is the role of the skiff.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Mining yield: The Skiff can have equivalent or comparable mining yield to the Mackinaw which puts it in joint second place in the mining yield table. This is a positive factor.


So, it's a positive factor to be tied in last place? Most people would call that a negative factor.


See, now here is a guy that is a bit more Objective in his knowledge
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#150 - 2014-11-30 11:10:08 UTC
For Hopelesshobo & Max Deveron:

Re Ore hold use. You HAVE to look how the Skiff is used in the real world/EVE based on it's statistics. If you TRY to use it as a solo mining vessel you will have to use jet cans which most people won't want to do. Or use an MTU which again can be destroyed fairly quickly so that isn't much better than jet can use. I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all. It is a positive factor because it enables some 'afk' use or easier multi account 'atk' use as the hold can store several cycles worth of ore.

Re Drone Damage. The original OP and the previous discussion post which cam before this OP both mentioned null sec use as well as riskier sec status environments. I never stated I was only concerned about high sec use nor is this OP about ganking of Skiffs. It is about role based balancing of ships which is CCP's policy. Hopelesshobo says one Skiff can destroy one Catalyst. Where the Skiff is primarily used in fleet scenarios the available DPS can therefore be multiplied many times over. Again this is a positive factor.

Re Tanking ability. You agree this is a positive factor.

Re Mining yield. Currently the Skiff is not in last place in terms of mining yield. It is in second place with the Mackinaw. The Covetor, Procurer, Retriever, Prospect, & Venture are all below it in yield.

I am calling for a drop in mining yield on the Skiff to balance the ship out given the other statistics of the ship.

I will amend the OP now to call for an unspecified reduction in mining yield. Maybe that will placate you.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#151 - 2014-11-30 11:18:49 UTC
The OP has been amended and calls for an unspecified decrease in mining yield of the Skiff to compensate for its other capabilities to balance it compared to the other mining vessels.

I call on the CCP devs to give their viewpoint on this proposal yet again.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2014-11-30 12:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I use my Skiff solo without an Orca/hauler/freighter/MTU to put in my ores/ice. Many people in the ice belts I frequent use their skiffs solo or with an Orca that just offers boost but no access to the FH. Furthermore, you fill your Skiff's ore hold with proper boosts in around 7 minutes. This allows for nearly no afk at all as you constantly need to empty your hold and watch the clock. For me, this is neither a positive nor a negative factor, it is a factor that balances out the tank this ship has.

Your mining yield is very inaccurate: I have to go to station 2 as often to unload my ice as a Mackinaw. In the same 15 minutes where I mine 30 ice blocks, a Mackinaw goes to station once and has mined 35 ice blocks. Furthermore, comparing Exhumers with Barges and Mining Frigates is a questionable way of proving your point. Barges are by definition less efficient than T2 hulls. If you want to compare, you have to compare the Proc with other Barges and Skiffs with other Exhumers to give a credible picture.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#153 - 2014-11-30 15:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Yolandar
^^this^^

Unboosted, takes me 12m to fill and unload my skiff. I dock twice as often as the mack in my belt.

afk in the skiff? Nah, I'd be sportin the mack. And not with the gankers around, they made that choice for me.

Drone bonus is nice but means nothing in hisec, unless you wanna be on ganker killmails. Proc has a drone bonus, this is the t2.

The yield is stll in 3rd place. If somebody got a legit fleet (after Jan 1), then more power to them for being smart. And like your last attempt at nerfing this ship, a fleet can be nullified by bumpin the orca outta the belt.

Agree with these mates, you cannot use the fleet argument.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all.



Onus is on you to prove that. Citation required
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#154 - 2014-11-30 16:54:27 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I use my Skiff solo without an Orca/hauler/freighter/MTU to put in my ores/ice. Many people in the ice belts I frequent use their skiffs solo or with an Orca that just offers boost but no access to the FH. Furthermore, you fill your Skiff's ore hold with proper boosts in around 7 minutes. This allows for nearly no afk at all as you constantly need to empty your hold and watch the clock. For me, this is neither a positive nor a negative factor, it is a factor that balances out the tank this ship has.

Your mining yield is very inaccurate: I have to go to station 2 as often to unload my ice as a Mackinaw. In the same 15 minutes where I mine 30 ice blocks, a Mackinaw goes to station once and has mined 35 ice blocks. Furthermore, comparing Exhumers with Barges and Mining Frigates is a questionable way of proving your point. Barges are by definition less efficient than T2 hulls. If you want to compare, you have to compare the Proc with other Barges and Skiffs with other Exhumers to give a credible picture.


You're in the minority then and not being as economical as you could be. You are within your right to use a fleet mining vessel as a solo mining vessel of course. The customer is always right even when he wants to plant the rose bush upside-down with the flowers in the soil.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#155 - 2014-11-30 16:56:12 UTC
Yolandar wrote:
^^this^^

Unboosted, takes me 12m to fill and unload my skiff. I dock twice as often as the mack in my belt.

afk in the skiff? Nah, I'd be sportin the mack. And not with the gankers around, they made that choice for me.

Drone bonus is nice but means nothing in hisec, unless you wanna be on ganker killmails. Proc has a drone bonus, this is the t2.

The yield is stll in 3rd place. If somebody got a legit fleet (after Jan 1), then more power to them for being smart. And like your last attempt at nerfing this ship, a fleet can be nullified by bumpin the orca outta the belt.

Agree with these mates, you cannot use the fleet argument.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all.



Onus is on you to prove that. Citation required


I don't need to. You can come and watch this ISBoxer eleven skiff with Orca & Freighter support mining fleet with me if you like.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#156 - 2014-11-30 16:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Shocked Who has defined the Skiff as a Fleet Mining Vessel? The Hulk clearly is, but the Skiff? Where's that definition documented?

That's really far fetched. Moreover, I am more economical with the Skiff than with the Mackinaw because gankers do not want to invest the necessary effort and capital for ganking me whenever I poke my hull out of a station.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#157 - 2014-11-30 17:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
^^this^^

Unboosted, takes me 12m to fill and unload my skiff. I dock twice as often as the mack in my belt.

afk in the skiff? Nah, I'd be sportin the mack. And not with the gankers around, they made that choice for me.

Drone bonus is nice but means nothing in hisec, unless you wanna be on ganker killmails. Proc has a drone bonus, this is the t2.

The yield is stll in 3rd place. If somebody got a legit fleet (after Jan 1), then more power to them for being smart. And like your last attempt at nerfing this ship, a fleet can be nullified by bumpin the orca outta the belt.

Agree with these mates, you cannot use the fleet argument.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all.



Onus is on you to prove that. Citation required


I don't need to. You can come and watch this ISBoxer eleven skiff with Orca & Freighter support mining fleet with me if you like.


My area's resident ISBoxer uses mostly Rets with the occasional Mack mixed in.

You must have an area that's frequented by CODE. or something. Roll

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#158 - 2014-11-30 17:13:26 UTC
So someone told me there was a leaked mail where CODE said they were changing tactics to counter the proliferation of Skiff and Procs.

Apparently their new tactics are to whine on the forums...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#159 - 2014-11-30 17:17:25 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
For Hopelesshobo & Max Deveron:

Re Ore hold use. You HAVE to look how the Skiff is used in the real world/EVE based on it's statistics. If you TRY to use it as a solo mining vessel you will have to use jet cans which most people won't want to do. Or use an MTU which again can be destroyed fairly quickly so that isn't much better than jet can use. I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all. It is a positive factor because it enables some 'afk' use or easier multi account 'atk' use as the hold can store several cycles worth of ore.


So because you have to use jetcans because the cargohold is too small, that isn't a negative factor? The Mackinaw doesn't need to do this, so it's a positive factor for the Mackinaw, and a negative factor for both the Hulk and the Skiff. If you don't like that, then the fact that you can more effectively use the Mackinaw for solo work as well as fleet work, while the Skiff and the Hulk are more dependent on having dedicated haulers.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Re Drone Damage. The original OP and the previous discussion post which cam before this OP both mentioned null sec use as well as riskier sec status environments. I never stated I was only concerned about high sec use nor is this OP about ganking of Skiffs. It is about role based balancing of ships which is CCP's policy. Hopelesshobo says one Skiff can destroy one Catalyst. Where the Skiff is primarily used in fleet scenarios the available DPS can therefore be multiplied many times over. Again this is a positive factor.


You specifically mentioned in the quote from before jet can theft, and I don't know of any jet can theft that happens outside of highsec, because the person would just kill your Exhumer. Keep in mind with the Catalyst killing capabilities, that each person would only have about 4 seconds to get their drones applying their DPS onto a separate Catalyst before Concord shows up. But, how often do ganks actually take 16 seconds to accomplish? From there, I have heard that Hulks have enough tank to mine in nulsec and defend themselves against nulsec rats if tanked properly, so it's not like Skiffs are exclusive to nul.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

Re Mining yield. Currently the Skiff is not in last place in terms of mining yield. It is in second place with the Mackinaw. The Covetor, Procurer, Retriever, Prospect, & Venture are all below it in yield.


Your joking right? That's like complaining that my Cerberus does more DPS and has more tank then my Caracal. If you want to complain about Exhumer balance, you need to compare it to other Exhumers, not mining barges. So yes, when you only compare it to other Exhumers, it is tied for last place.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:

I am calling for a drop in mining yield on the Skiff to balance the ship out given the other statistics of the ship.

I will amend the OP now to call for an unspecified reduction in mining yield. Maybe that will placate you.


No it doesn't, CCP recently buffed the Skiff because according to their server data, almost nobody was using them. Now, I would be curious after they rebalanced it what kind of increase in use it has seen compared to the other Exhumers, but unless the majority of players have decided to use the skiff and nobody else is using any of the other Exhumers, then it is indeed balanced.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#160 - 2014-12-01 00:51:50 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
^^this^^

Unboosted, takes me 12m to fill and unload my skiff. I dock twice as often as the mack in my belt.

afk in the skiff? Nah, I'd be sportin the mack. And not with the gankers around, they made that choice for me.

Drone bonus is nice but means nothing in hisec, unless you wanna be on ganker killmails. Proc has a drone bonus, this is the t2.

The yield is stll in 3rd place. If somebody got a legit fleet (after Jan 1), then more power to them for being smart. And like your last attempt at nerfing this ship, a fleet can be nullified by bumpin the orca outta the belt.

Agree with these mates, you cannot use the fleet argument.

Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I defy you to find many Skiffs being used as solo mining vessels. You won't find many if any at all.



Onus is on you to prove that. Citation required


I don't need to. You can come and watch this ISBoxer eleven skiff with Orca & Freighter support mining fleet with me if you like.


So then nerf isboxer.

Oh wait... Roll