Intergalactic Summit

I do not disagree with you. I think the current model - where Achurans begin outside the State and are forced to discard the traditions they are raised in so that they can gain the benefits of citizenship or to remain as outsiders on their own homeworld is a broken model. I wish to see it replaced with a model where all Achurans are born into the State and never have to discard their upbringing in order to retain the benefits they have as a Citizen of the State.

I disagree, however, that the onus for change lies solely on the State. This has to be a shared duty, because it will require shared work and shared responsibilities. We have to begin the process of dismantling the client state and opening the Achuran culture up to make it transparent to Civire and Deteis. We have to open up the Wayiist faith and the Achuran faith, take stock of both and decide how they can, first exist together and second, begin to move into each other.

The timing will be critical! The client state needs to be dismantled quickly enough that the young can see change coming, but slowly enough that the old need not fear it's loss. I wouldn't know how to begin such complex procedure - but I think a series of discussions is a great way to start. And I think a statement from Suvee that it understands the flaws in the current model would be another nice start.

I must actually admit, having re-read the entire thread now, I am questioning my previous thoughts.

I will have to think on this some more.

Oh. I thought you understood that if you wanted things to change then you were going to have to... well... change things.

I think it's worth making the point that the State isn't going to do that just because two Achurans have convinced one Civire that there's a case to answer. I thought it was understood that what you're talking about is fair and proper, but it's more than likely never going to happen unless someone gets out there and makes it happen.

See, and here's the thing, you're still talking in terms of 'Them" and 'Us' as it pertains to the State and the Client State on Achur Prime. No. Bad Gwen. You can't be speaking of the wider State as an out-group if you want to convince that same wider State that ALL Achurans should be an in-group. You need to be talking in terms of 'We need to make changes", "We need to change our attitudes." and "We could stand to make a little room for THESE cultural elements in our lives."

I'm still hearing talk that sounds very much like you want to be welcomed into my house, given a room of your own and then left the hell alone. That's not going to fly. I'm saying you deserve the same opportunities and privileges I get. You're saying that you deserve those of my opportunities and privileges that you want and that I couldn't possibly, like, understand the other set of privileges you deserve, but you should still have them and not even have to explain them to me in case I want them.

Anything that leaves Achur Prime headed for the wider State is going to have to pass muster in the marketplace of ideas. It's going to have to prove itself superior to existing social mores and standards. In other words, you have a HUGE PR job to do. Right now, the only people with an opinion about the Achurans are the Achurans and the Mega Corporation making a fortune from it's lucrative deals with the Client State. Give the people of Lai Dai a reason to care. The people of Kaalakiotaa. Wiyrkomi. Engage them. Make them take a stake in your future as equals. Show them how you'll make them richer - and I don't just mean in terms of money. Show the average prole on the street how having the Achurans as equals improves his life.

Cultural richness?
Military strength?
Scientific progress?
Economic power?

Your average Caldari doesn't care about your cultural uniqueness and distinctiveness. He doesn't give a damn about diversity. He does not feel a moral obligation to the Achurans. Trying to appeal to these things and then scolding him for something a totally different Megacorporation did hundreds of years ago? I'm telling you now that this is not a winning strategy. Quite the opposite, he'll see you as a weak and needy parasite who wants to take and take and not give anything back. Who needs our help, but sees themself as being too good to really mix in with us. That's not attractive, Gwen.

Let me be as blunt as Takedi-haan and yourself have been. You're in trouble. Life as an independent race is probably a death sentence for you - you're encysted into the heart of a vital isolationist spacefaring power with a focus on self-defence that borders on the paranoid. The regional power (Suvee) clearly sees you as a resource to be exploited and you have no strong central government to appeal to. A large percentage of your race isn't even culturally Achuran anymore - the vast majority of Achurans don't live under the Elder Visionaries, they're Suvee corporate employees in the cities.

Under these circumstances, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that you'll have to be the ones to get out there and make the first move. Suvee isn't the State. No single corporation is the State. Most of them have probably never even seen an Achuran that wasn't in an A-Pop group or an advertisement for a Suvee product or service.

Pieter... You really shouldn't assume so much from just a few sentences. You're just going to get us both upset.

I'm not backpedaling and saying we shouldn't integrate. You've mistaken adopting a realistic attitude for being personally prideful or demanding. I don't, and am not trying to, represent the Achur on the homeworld any more then you represent the rest of the State - At the end of the day, I'm just one person, and how I feel about any of this doesn't really mean much at all. So I'm mostly speaking analytically. I'm talking about the State in the context of being an out-group because to most of the people on the planet, it is. Which is all that really matters for the situation at hand.

When I said the State should make the first move, I meant at a national level - In the sense that it should be the one to first propose integrating the culture diplomatically when we finally get to the stage where it's even on the table. I didn't mean that, at our level, individuals wouldn't have to do a great deal to raise awareness of the issues involved first in the State at large to get anything to even happen. And I didn't suggest it out of my own sense of entitlement, but rather because I don't feel like the actual people in power on the homeworld would be comfortable to try and initiate something like this in the present state of things.

Finally, I pointed out that stuff about the Faith not because I think it is sacred to me personally or because I am offended at the notion of it being changed in any way, but because I'm trying to make you aware of the challenges involved in adjusting it to the State without facing backlash. I am not throwing my hands into the air and declaring it unsolvable and that the Caldari must bend to our whim.

I understand how you misconstrued me, but denying these obstacles exist at all will make them impossible to overcome. As you said, this requires the maximum of consideration and sensitivity on both sides. That means that we have to consider the feelings of all parties - Not just the dominant one - And accept that they'll be resistance even from the people who you appear to believe will be getting the better end of the deal, if we hope to reach a functional resolution.

As for the rest of what you said, well... In all of this, I'm ultimately thinking with my heart more than with my head, Pieter, I am most of the time.

I feel I could, and will if needed, make a good argument for why Achuran culture would be an excellent addition to the State mainstream (mainly revolving around the fact that it consistently produces some of the clusters best great thinkers and scientists, while presently the militant nature of the State has sort of fostered an unhealthy degree of anti-intellectualism) but ultimately, I want to believe that the average Caldari has great enough principles not to need that argument to be appalled by the idea of their nation coming upon a frail civilization like hound on a doe and taking them for all their worth, and then leaving the remains to rot in the sun.

I want to believe you're mistaken. That the status quo is not an issue of apathy, but ignorance. That if more people in the State, even in SuVee, had all this pointed out to them, and were aware of our culture in a way that allowed them to better empathize with it, they would, even if they ultimately chose not to integrate it, be willing to find a way for us to coexist that is better than the present one. That the anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist attitudes espoused by the founders were not a mere case of "do as I say, but not as I do".

Because if they wouldn't and weren't - If the State were, ultimately, nothing but another Kingdom with a slightly lower paint budget and with profit as it's sole idol instead of God, that would shamelessly treat a vastly weaker and more vulnerable people as, in your words, "resources to be exploited" - I'm not sure I'd really want to be a full citizen.

In reply to Gwen.

What yourself and Takedi are talking about is a huge sea-change in the way that the Achurans specifically are treated within the State, with elements of their culture being inserted into the State mainstream so that culturally Achuran Achurans can remain so WHILST joining the corporate system. I feel this is a healthy option for the State as a whole.

When I make decisions like this I always try to be guided by Heiian - my duty to my kirjuun, Megacorporation and the State as a whole. I believe it would do damage to the very soul of the State if we invited a race into the State and then suppressed their culture - as if they were one of the regular client states. I think the Achurans are more important to the State than that and if they are truly to become an equal partner then perhaps we should be doing with them what the Civire and Deteis did - work out our differences, celebrate our similarities and form a syncretic faith and culture that benefits all.

The only thing is that this is an inherently contentious process that involves a lot of justification and advocacy. Achurans are going to have to speak to their strengths and skills, the strengths and skills of their culture and how making room for them in this way will bring concrete long term benefits to every citizen in the State. The State is monocultural - we see that as being not just a strength but a defining characteristic - so everything that is imported into our greater culture must be accessible to every citizen, regardless of bloodline and background. This isn't a conceit, if you undermine this aspect of the State you are also undercutting the Collectivism that is at the heart of who we are.

Now, within these monolithic concepts there remains, by design, a fair amount of wiggle room. Verin and I are remarkably similar to outsiders - so much so that I am often asked if I'm his younger sibling. To Caldari, however, we're quite dissimilar. Verin is more thoughtful and pragmatic. I'm far more idealistic than he is (although perhaps that difference is explained by age). He prefers a more intellectualised view of Wayiism where Maker, Winds and Ancestors are abstracts and metaphors, whilst I'm far more orthodox in my interpretations. I'm from Suvee and he was raised in Ishukone - two Megas with VERY different outlooks.

Nonetheless Verin and I can have a discussion about things that are quite personal and not come to blows - simply because his religious outlook doesn't work at cross-puproses with mine, in practice. They are not the same and you can't imagine two Amarr having a discussion about whether God is real or a metaphor without it coming to pitchforks and torches, but the Caldari set rigidly defined bounds within which it is just none of my damn business what Verin believes unless I'm interested in asking and he's interested in explaining.

Do you see the paradox? Do you see how this won't simply allow us to say "And here's the Achuran Faith it, too, is totally cool and should exist separately and equal to Wayiism." What we need to do is find a way to incorporate Achuran spiritual tenets into Wayiism so that Achurans can be Achurans not separately from Civire being Civire and Deteis being Deteis but alongside them. Alongside. Not hidden away in private. Openly alongside.

I totally accept that this is hard and that, for quite some time, there may just need to be an Achuran shrine in a quiet corner of a Wayiist shrine or temple. But eventually Achuran and Civire need to be able to sit down and discuss their faith as openly and without shame or suspicion - and that can't happen with the Achuran faith in it's current state.

Now, onto this accusation of anti-intellectualism. The State produces some WONDERFUL thinkers and scientists - the thing is that abstract thought is generally sneered at, not thought per se. Everyone can understand and respect the way that a truly great scientist contributes, especially one who has dedicated themself to the greater good - but it has to be practical speculation. If you need an example of this, you only need to look to Scherezad and the way that the other State capsuleers treat her, an Achuran. Most of us would happily step in front of a bullet for her and when she speaks on a matter, her views are always given consideration.

And... I've gone on for far too long. But these are complex subjects and whilst my reactions are also from my heart - they come from things that can be defined quite excellently by the head.

Takedi-haan, you have to understand that despite (or perhaps BECAUSE) of my upbringing in a Suvee creche, while I know something of Achuran social norms and I know how to project authority and confidence to an Achuran without appearing to be directly threatening them, I know almost nothing of your spirituality.

If the differences are that superficial, then I think the job is going to be a lot easier than Gwen claimed - because I don't care what you call the Maker and how you venerate your ancestors, if that's what you do. And I don't care that the way you perceive the Creator/Maker is slightly different than I do. If the differences between the Achuran faith and Wayiism are truly matters of perspective, different lessons learned and (Maker forbid) different words for similar concepts then how could I complain?

And I never spoke of you accepting our faith. I spoke of taking your faith AND my faith and finding some merger of the two that is acceptable to both of us. What you are describing is the current system - which I agree is unfair in the case of the Achurans. All I want is for all Caldari to be of one heart and one spirit - but NEVER of one mind.

Pieter,

Respectfully, I must insist the State is rather anti-intellectual, and not just in terms of abstract thinking (though that is a problem, since putting abstract thinking on a pedestal is one of the defining elements of our faith and culture). Rather, you understand that you sequester your scientists away in seperate communities for generations, literally handing mantles down from father to son like something out of days of yore, because you're so terrified of having them as part of the corporate mainstream? I do not believe this to be either a healthy nor particularly efficient public attitude. Achuran culture puts of our scientists at the helm of society - One of the main reasons we have such a incredible amount of Capsuleers - And could do much to remedy this.

I'm not sure how palatable this would be to ethnic Caldari, though. The problem with the marketplace of ideals is that often, it awards victory to the comfortable, rather than the superior.

Mister Takedi,

While I hate to do damage to the notion of us integrating with the State mainstream being easy, I do rather think you're painting our faiths as having rather more in common than they actually do. While they appear similar at surface level, I'm not sure how much deeper it goes than that.

I can think of a number of big divisions, but the main one that comes to mind is, fundamentally, Wayism is a community driven faith - It's existance can be traced to a need to motivate individuals to better serve the society on which it is based. You see this in all their myths and deities, Cold Wind being the most obvious, but also in the practice of ancestor worship as a clear attempt to reinforce family bonds and keep things clean and unified.

On the other hand, our faith is very personal and about the individual. It focuses on pursuing understanding not for the benefit of the whole, but rather simply because it is worth doing for it's own sake, and enriches us in the process. It exalts personal creativity - Something often scorned in the Caldari Way - and ancestor worship is effectively a footnote, much of it likely only born of cultural osmosis.

Caldari faith is also a lot more focused on the material, for reasons that make complete sense when you're from a resource scarce planet. But ours scorns it completely. Wealth, power - These are only things, and of no true value.

...Gods, laying it all out like that really does make this all seem nearly impossible. Needless to say, these differences will be a considerable challenge to reconcile, as you would expect for two distinct peoples from entirely seperate backgrounds.

Gwen, I understand your argument, but feel your words reinforce my own.
The lessons our peoples were taught remain similar, but the interpretation of them has been shaped by our homeworlds.

Let us take for example, the lesson of ten sticks.
I have heard versions of this tale from all corners of the cluster.

the lesson is simple, one stick is weaker than many.
however, let us consider how our peoples interpreted that message.

For the people of Caldari prime, the lesson was just that.
A single stick breaks. To stand alone is weakness.
a tightly bound group of sticks resists. To stand together is strength.

For our people the lesson was more nuanced.
A single stick may break, but it can also bend.
A tightly bound group of sticks may have strength, but it is also rigid and unchanging.

The reason for such a vastly different interpretation?
While it offers some comfort to think it was solely due to the differing spiritualistic styles of our people, I think the true reason is far more practical. I have never seen a willow tree on Caldari Prime.

And thank you for the thought provoking discussion! The Tuulinen Foundation for a better State now has a new cause to consider.

Miss Ymladris,

Since that last couple pages dialogue pretty much destroyed any final pretenses of objectivity I might have been fooling people into thinking I had, and since I'm probably going to end the exercise in a few hours anyway, I would like to bullrush you with some rather bold followup questions to this part of your response. Feel free to ignore them if you find them to be inappropriate.

You've spoken of the demolishing and rebuilding of our cities as a unambiguously positive act, on the basis of it being "more advanced". Do you not believe there was any cultural value to them that might have been lost? Numerous monuments and the best of examples of our pre-industrial architecture, endless sites of profound historical importance - Do you truly believe sheer, cold efficiency tops all this, and, if so, that it was the choice of outsiders to make? Surely the Caldari would not be thrilled if I decided to cover the Kaalakiota peaks top-to-bottom in monasteries to the Faith.

No doubt it is, as you say, what they do - But does that make it, in any regard, just? These are peoples homes we are talking about.

You also haven't mentioned anything to do with the deposing of our government, or the enforcing of Caldari cultural standards, in the second section.