Ships & Modules

Active tank bonuses on tech II haulers.

If you're getting shot at, you're dead, unless you are in high sec and your buffer is > than the DPS they can put out.

If these were buffer bonuses they'd actually be useful.

Wrote a long reply, forums ate it. :ccp:

Summary: 5-rep, rep-droned Basilisk reps only a bit above 9% more than 4-rep, rep-droned Scimmy. Where is your 46% coming from? Given that you need the rep range bonus so ships can move to minimize transversal, drop off ore in mining colonies, and stuff like that, and given that two logistics, either two basis or two scimmies, are needed to tank, then the logistics that can ALSO provide bonused tracking links are indisputably better, no? However small the increase in applied damage is, if it's there, the bonus has a use.

Damps: Damps suck. This is well known. The damp bonus on Celestises do not. Celestii (**** it going to spell it that way) do not scare off fights like Blackbirds. They also work better in many cases against ECCMed Logi coming in at range. You can't ignore the psychological factors in Eve PvP - I could roll with Cynabals and Blackbirds all day, an undoubtedly better fleet than Ruptures and Celestii, and not get half the fights I would with the Ruptures and Celestii. They have a niche of being inferior ships that can still be made workable (which their bonus helps with), and that's a big ******* use in EVE because half of PvP is not scaring your opposition off so you get a fight in the first place.

In contrast, the active tank bonuses on transports ARE absolutely useless. There is no niche where using them can improve your game. Putting those bonuses on the same level as Scimitar tracking links is absurd.

Uh.. I've used them in PvP.

Yes well I've used the active tank bonus on a hauler in PVP too - doesn't mean it was the best way to go about doing what I wanted to do.

-Liang

Heh, you should take a look at those 4 RR Scims and see just how much of that speed and agility they actually have. The Scim reacts well to nanoing, but its not all that fast or agile in that kind of configuration. That said - its absolutely trivial to put together a Basi that will out perform the Scim. Like I said - the only way that I'm going to fly a Scim (even as the sole logi in a fleet) is if I simply do not have a fit Basilisk in my hangar or I'm trying to rep a Cynabal that's hell bent on MWDing away from me.



The Scim does need a boost:
1. The Scim is flat inferior to the Basi in large gangs.
2. The Scim is flat inferior to the Basi in small gangs.
3. The Scim is flat inferior to the Basi as the sole logi in a small gang.
4. If you want to say the Scim is going to last longer on cap, you just have NO IDEA how cap works on a Logi - especially an active tanked one. The cap is extremely small and running your RRs at the same time as your reps (equivalent to the Sleip running its guns while running its reps) will cap you out in mere moments. Furthermore, the capacitor is pretty damn small and its absolutely trivial to nuke a logi's cap.

Not that I expect you to know the first thing about practical application of a logistics ship.



Oh my god man, do you even ******* read? I don't fly the Scimitar anymore. Once I figured out that the Basi didn't need a cap buddy and that it almost by default comes with 66% more repping power and a utility high (another RR, ET, Cloak, whatever) than your "good" PVP Scim fits... why the **** would I?

That's the entire reason I keep bemoaning the TL bonus on the Scim - without a bonus that applies to survivability of a sole logi it really is inferior to the Basi. ALWAYS.

-_-

-Liang

Ed: Stick to talking about the web bonus on your Vindicator in Shiny Fleet Incursions. You obviously have no ******* clue about Logis.

I literally wrote that I use TLs in PvP and then you said I didn't...?

Are you ******* high bro? You can legitimately run an XL booster Sleip for incredibly more burst and roughly equivalent sustained tank. Furthermore, it has a larger capacitor, more HP, and the ability to defend itself when pinned down. Even with a rep bonus, the Sleip would utterly outclass the Scim.



You see more Scimitars floating around because people haven't bothered to unstick their mind about the Basiisk and cap buddies. Consider:
- Superior speed is pretty much a myth if you're fitting 4 RRs. If you're fitting 3 RRs, you're down 66% RR capability from a Basilisk and I hope you enjoy listening to your fleet mates die while you explain to them that your 3 RRs are already overheated.
- The sig radius is nice, but the Basilisk doesn't exactly have a huge sig radius - certainly not once you consider the fact most Scims are buffer fit with a LSE.
- The resist layout for the Basi is arguably better - afterall Drakes aren't terribly uncommon and Kin is the weak spot on a Minnie shields. The situation in actual PVP is somewhere between the Basi being better and a wash.
- Cap Buddies being required for a Basi is a total myth. Take the fit you have on your Scim and transfer it directly to a Basi. Oh my gosh, oh look, its already better. Yes, you can do a 5/1 and devote only the one slot to capacitor, but you don't HAVE to do that. But, you have the flexibility if you want it. :)



It comes down to this: 4 bonused TLs provides less benefit than a single unbonused web. You'll get more benefit from Rapiers and Basis than you will from an equal number of Scims. Especially if you're running 3 RR Scims as you're likely to see in PVP.



Comments:
- In the Moros example: 4 bonused TLs provides less benefit than a single unbonused web. Fit painters + webs to a Rapier and behold a superior experience. Again.
- In the fight example: You are effectively talking about a situation where the primaries are dying in < 2.5-5 seconds (Web cycle times). Seems pretty brain dead to sacrifice tank with a TL Scim in such a situation.
- Again, best use is when you can set the Scim out with TLs on an alt and totally ignore it until **** Hits The Fan. But then, you're talking about simply bringing more people (that you otherwise wouldn't be able to) and the function is very similar to AFK T3 gang boosters.



You remember back when everyone was talking about how TL Onys making Pulse Apocs hit to > 100km would usher in a new age of WTF OPness? Yeah. (Again, better way to accomplish the goal - this is similar to someone wanting an active tank bonused T2 hauler for bait).

I also think that these two quotes of yours are pretty ******* priceless - first you admit total ignorance to the topic at hand and then tell someone that's done it for 2-3 years 4-6 hours/day that they don't know the topic.
- "You are right about one thing though, I have no experience flying active tanked logis. Nor do I fly them in lowsec. "
- "Stick to talking about the need for a local tank on lowsec gates. You obviously have no ******* clue about Logis."

-Liang

Ed: If you're curious - I only questioned conventional wisdom (Scim > Basi) because I was getting desperately tired of listening to my corp mates die on vent because I just *DID NOT* have enough repping power. Once I engaged my brain it was really obvious.... conventional wisdom is flat ******* wrong.

Also, its worth mentioning that I don't JUST fly in low sec. Nor when in low sec do I JUST fight under sentry fire. I fly in Sov 0.0, NPC 0.0, WH space, low sec, and even high sec (though admittedly not as much in high sec). Its ******* hilarious of you to try to tell me my opinion is invalid because of "low sec".

lolz.

See actually what your missing in the incursion/TL formula is the real use for them. Forget web range. The point is for you to insta gib the sansha at range with Blasters/Pulse. Waiting for them to get into web range is silly. Bringing a dedicated web ship isn't always possible nor is it always preferred (armor fleet says hi.). Why fart around waiting for someone to get this webbed down when you can pop them where they spawn. The Rapier will just add time to your site as it really brings nothing useful to the table. Bring Ony/scimi with bonused TL's and watch sansha go poof at 65km.

Comments:
- I'm reasonably sure I specifically mentioned the claimed Incursion TL use case. I definitely didn't miss it. -_- But on that subject, the only way that I'm going to buy the TL use case in Incursions is if someone can show the practical difference between using them or not. Afterall, Basis do have much better HPS than Scims - if you can afford to drop a logi for another DPS, its inevitable that it'll be better than whatever minor difference a TL on the Scim makes. Don't forget the earlier cited example of people not even noticing when the Scim wasn't using TLs.
- Web range is actually pretty far if you're willing to spend billions like people do with the faction TL Scims.
- Blaster DPS from a Vindicator at 65km is pretty low (even with bonused TLs powering it). Seems like your primary use case revolves around ROF rather than the "DPS" the TL Scim enables. Again, seems there's probably a better way to do it.

-Liang

The sleip has 29% better pulse tank, and caps out running only its tank in a minute and a half. The scim will never cap out running only its tank (caps out in a minute and a half running 2 of its reps, or 2:45 with the tank+MWD). Sleip is better IMO (even that being debateable) but not by much. I would wager that the smaller sig radius alone is enough to offset that difference.

A scimi with just a MWD is already a good 500m/s faster than a basi. That's quite noticeable, without even diving in to nanos and whatnot.
You're still looking at it from a one or the other standpoint. You haven't addressed the issue at all.
A mix of the 3, if you had the numbers to do it, would be the absolute ideal.

Smaller ships tend to leave in a hurry when rapiers show up. Not so much for an oneiros. "HAH! That dread can't hit me, I'm not even webbed!" BOOM.
No, I'm not. The primary is webbed, and you want to pop a tackler burning for the logi. Perfectly reasonable to do so with a TLed ship (especially if it's not in web range, range scripts ftw) Also, confirming that when you web someone, they slow down instantly.

TLs + reps also provide support that helps just as much as webs, albeit in a different way. And 2 scimis will likely have more repping power than a basi and a rapier...




I also think that these two quotes of yours are pretty ******* priceless - first you admit total ignorance to the topic at hand and then tell someone that's done it for 2-3 years 4-6 hours/day that they don't know the topic.
- "You are right about one thing though, I have no experience flying active tanked logis. Nor do I fly them in lowsec. "
- "Stick to talking about the need for a local tank on lowsec gates. You obviously have no ******* clue about Logis."


Bolded the important bits. Stop being intentionally dense, we have enough people who run around here doing that as it is