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Bounty hunting - let's get this sorted

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Solo Player
#21 - 2011-11-12 08:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Solo Player
Malcanis wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Fair enough.

Will you offer an amount of isk for people to come up with ways to exploit this in order to amend your proposal accordingly? ;)



Why don't you just post the exploit along with the fix to make me look dumb? Surely the pleasurable memory of doing that will warm your heart long after some petty sum of evanescent ISK would have been frittered away.


:)

'fraid I don't know any. But I'm sure others will come up with one, especially comforted by the double warmth of being right AND soft, tender ISK to grace their company.

One thing to get this back on track, though. You seem to propose that bounties can only be gained by first accepting a contract. Would that contract be exclusive to a single taker? Or could the contract remain up for as many people as willing to accept under the conditions given, until either the cash or the timeframe is used up?
If it is the former, I imagine the bountied player might just block the contract by accepting it herself through some intermediate.
If it is the latter, this could be made easier by only displaying (and thus, paying out) the bounty to players that fall within the conditions determined by the bounty giver.

Also, I wonder if there isn't a way for the bountied player to rid himself of the bounty at favourable conditions in a quick bout of insured pvp, thus escaping prolonged consequence as a bounty target.
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
#22 - 2011-11-12 12:31:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...

Being able to restrict who can accept your contract is pretty important too.


*shrug* as long as value paid is less than value destroyed. no matter what you try, you can never be sure who is actually accepting contract. imo, i don't think there needs to be contract. if someone has killrights and backs it with ISK, anyone can shoot the target and collect.

tho, it might be interesting to limit who does collect. it could add flavor. or there could be both: public (market) and private (contract) bounties.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#23 - 2011-11-12 13:13:25 UTC
This idea has merit.

(See I don't hate you).

.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2011-11-12 13:40:30 UTC
Jagga Spikes wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...

Being able to restrict who can accept your contract is pretty important too.


*shrug* as long as value paid is less than value destroyed. no matter what you try, you can never be sure who is actually accepting contract. imo, i don't think there needs to be contract. if someone has killrights and backs it with ISK, anyone can shoot the target and collect.

tho, it might be interesting to limit who does collect. it could add flavor. or there could be both: public (market) and private (contract) bounties.



The important part of the contract is to transfer the killright, not the money.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2011-11-12 13:43:12 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
This idea has merit.

(See I don't hate you).



I'm OK with people hating me (or at any rate I'm used to it by now), but I prefer the criticism of my proposals to be based on facts, coherently expressed, and structured in a way that lets me actually understand what you are mad about. When people just copypasta rants from another thread entirely and shoot them at me as well, I don't feel as inclined to reply constructively.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#26 - 2011-11-12 13:50:01 UTC
It's your perogative to reply however you like, I merely stated that you had no idea what you were talking about - which you yourself said was so.

All my comment required as reply was a EvilBlink or other short message.

If you like we can continue here and **** this thread up too ?

.
Solo Player
#27 - 2011-11-12 14:14:12 UTC
It's certainly not my job to be doing this, but seriously, this is getting extremely tedious. You're at it in every second thread on two different subforums!
The two of you, just pack your egos back into your trousers, will you?! I've seen some very good ideas here and there, but these threads won't be going anywhere if you keep this up! Ugh
Dro Nee
#28 - 2011-11-12 16:55:33 UTC
Solo Player wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A similar idea was proposed a few weeks ago. Working up a proposal is on my to-do list.


That one.

Which I think is more elegant in its simplicity, even though it eschews the topic of kill-rights.
Baby steps, you know? :)




Plugging the "kill myself with an alt" hole is fine and good, but tying killrights to bounties is really what makes bounties work in the general sense.

-- Allows for placing bounties on players who keep thier sec status up.
-- Allows killing the bountied player in highsec or on gates/stations.
-- No sec hit for attacking the bountied player.
-- Prevents bounties from becoming a substitution for merc contracts.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2011-11-12 16:59:15 UTC
Dro Nee wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A similar idea was proposed a few weeks ago. Working up a proposal is on my to-do list.


That one.

Which I think is more elegant in its simplicity, even though it eschews the topic of kill-rights.
Baby steps, you know? :)




Plugging the "kill myself with an alt" hole is fine and good, but tying killrights to bounties is really what makes bounties work in the general sense.

-- Allows for placing bounties on players who keep thier sec status up.
-- Allows killing the bountied player in highsec or on gates/stations.
-- No sec hit for attacking the bountied player.
-- Prevents bounties from becoming a substitution for merc contracts.


Couldn't have put it better.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Manique
Ominous Corp
#30 - 2011-12-15 13:55:57 UTC
Needs a bump! *BUMP!*

+1
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#31 - 2011-12-15 20:21:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So imagine that you put a 500M bounty on Malcanis, whom I'm sure we all agree richly deserves it. Under the current system, I will simply jump to an empty clone and pod himself with an alt, collecting your 500 mill, less the cost of a new clone. Malcanis: 480,000,000 You: 0. The current system is worthless to you.
.

Well for this just pay out the bounty a little bit at a time based on the value of the pod

Lets say I have an 80 mil bounty on me. Someone pods me while I was in a 2 mil clone with 10 mil worth of implants. They get 12 mil and my bounty goes down to 68 mil.

That way people would still get a reward for podding people with bounties, but I couldn't throw myself a "Pod party" to collect my own bounty because I'd only gain as much isk as I'd lose.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2011-12-15 20:22:28 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So imagine that you put a 500M bounty on Malcanis, whom I'm sure we all agree richly deserves it. Under the current system, I will simply jump to an empty clone and pod himself with an alt, collecting your 500 mill, less the cost of a new clone. Malcanis: 480,000,000 You: 0. The current system is worthless to you.
.

Well for this just pay out the bounty a little bit at a time based on the value of the pod

Lets say I have an 80 mil bounty on me. Someone pods me while I was in a 2 mil clone with 10 mil worth of implants. They get 12 mil and my bounty goes down to 68 mil.

That way people would still get a reward for podding people with bounties, but I couldn't throw myself a "Pod party" to collect my own bounty because I'd only gain as much isk as I'd lose.



Well done for reading the rest of the proposal.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#33 - 2011-12-15 20:36:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Wolodymyr wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So imagine that you put a 500M bounty on Malcanis, whom I'm sure we all agree richly deserves it. Under the current system, I will simply jump to an empty clone and pod himself with an alt, collecting your 500 mill, less the cost of a new clone. Malcanis: 480,000,000 You: 0. The current system is worthless to you.
.

Well for this just pay out the bounty a little bit at a time based on the value of the pod

Lets say I have an 80 mil bounty on me. Someone pods me while I was in a 2 mil clone with 10 mil worth of implants. They get 12 mil and my bounty goes down to 68 mil.

That way people would still get a reward for podding people with bounties, but I couldn't throw myself a "Pod party" to collect my own bounty because I'd only gain as much isk as I'd lose.



Well done for reading the rest of the proposal.

Allright you got me.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#34 - 2011-12-15 20:56:27 UTC
I don't like the idea of limiting bounties to kills, because there are more reasons for bounties than violence. Corp thieves, scammers, et cetera could all draw substantial bounties without firing a shot.

Also, I'd love to see it used in times of war where an alliance could designate priority targets via internal bounty contracts, enabling them to put prices on the heads of certain enemies.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2011-12-15 21:18:39 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I don't like the idea of limiting bounties to kills, because there are more reasons for bounties than violence. Corp thieves, scammers, et cetera could all draw substantial bounties without firing a shot.


Agreed in principle, but how do you create a mechanic that allows corp thieves to have a bounty put on their head but that doesn't open any corp director who spends corp ISK to being killed for it?

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:

Also, I'd love to see it used in times of war where an alliance could designate priority targets via internal bounty contracts, enabling them to put prices on the heads of certain enemies.


A bounty system that is based on killrights could conceivably mesh with the wardec system. Since the essence of a wardec is that it allows all of corp A and corp B to have mutual killrights, then members of corp A could put bounties on wartarget corp B that can only be collected by members of corp A.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Adoniah Carrefour
the Whatley Brothers
#36 - 2011-12-16 00:00:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A similar idea was proposed a few weeks ago. Working up a proposal is on my to-do list.


That one.

Which I think is more elegant in its simplicity, even though it eschews the topic of kill-rights.
Baby steps, you know? :)





Yeah his idea for how the bounty collection works is essentially the same as mine. In fact it's the same mechanism I've been promoting for the last 3 years or so. My proposal adds a mechanic for allowing those bounties to be collected in hi-sec - transferrable killrights - that I think is worth having, as well as refinements like being able to limit who collects that bounty which I think are essential to prevent exploitation.


If you can't game the pay-out why limit who can collect? I do like that your mechanic allows Hunters to work in hi-sec.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2011-12-16 00:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Adoniah Carrefour wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A similar idea was proposed a few weeks ago. Working up a proposal is on my to-do list.


That one.

Which I think is more elegant in its simplicity, even though it eschews the topic of kill-rights.
Baby steps, you know? :)





Yeah his idea for how the bounty collection works is essentially the same as mine. In fact it's the same mechanism I've been promoting for the last 3 years or so. My proposal adds a mechanic for allowing those bounties to be collected in hi-sec - transferrable killrights - that I think is worth having, as well as refinements like being able to limit who collects that bounty which I think are essential to prevent exploitation.


If you can't game the pay-out why limit who can collect? I do like that your mechanic allows Hunters to work in hi-sec.


You put a 500M bounty contract on me. I use an alt to accept the contract and do nothing with it.

30 days later the contract expires along with the killright, and you wasted your time, (plus whatever ISK I managed to shave off the bounty by having that alt kill an empty pod a few times)

If you make the payout available to anyone, then I can just burn off the bounty without even bothering to use an anonymous alt to sneak a contract.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#38 - 2011-12-16 00:09:54 UTC
+1

If CCP is sincere in wanting to reinvigorate EVE and fix old mechanics then they ought to give thought out threads like this a read. The proposal is pretty sound, requiring little more than loophole search-and-destroy.
Adoniah Carrefour
the Whatley Brothers
#39 - 2011-12-16 00:14:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Adoniah Carrefour wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Solo Player wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A similar idea was proposed a few weeks ago. Working up a proposal is on my to-do list.


That one.

Which I think is more elegant in its simplicity, even though it eschews the topic of kill-rights.
Baby steps, you know? :)





Yeah his idea for how the bounty collection works is essentially the same as mine. In fact it's the same mechanism I've been promoting for the last 3 years or so. My proposal adds a mechanic for allowing those bounties to be collected in hi-sec - transferrable killrights - that I think is worth having, as well as refinements like being able to limit who collects that bounty which I think are essential to prevent exploitation.


If you can't game the pay-out why limit who can collect? I do like that your mechanic allows Hunters to work in hi-sec.


You put a 500M bounty contract on me. I use an alt to accept the contract and do nothing with it.

30 days later the contract expires along with the killright, and you wasted your time, (plus whatever ISK I managed to shave off the bounty by having that alt kill an empty pod a few times)

If you make the payout available to anyone, then I can just burn off the bounty without even bothering to use an alt.


OK .. I see that complication. What I meant was, isn't the easiest way around that to let anyone and everyone take the Bounties? Especially since the bounties themselves are going to be a percentage of the total bounty? Kill-rights for all until the Bounty has been paid out? That way even if you used an alt or friend to murder yourself (which still doesn't make sense because your loosing money on every kill) that would only be one of who knows how many people.

I think the Kill-Right angle might be a little much. Not because its not a good idea but because I think in practice, a working bounty system will used to grief. Justifiably maybe or in some cases not but if the amendments only affect payouts then at least a bountied criminal could hide in Sec-space. Kinda like going to prison, :P. If bounties worked, a huge number of players would go hunting. Huge. Its a thing. I'm new though so maybe I am missing something?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2012-01-09 14:58:46 UTC
Adoniah Carrefour wrote:

OK .. I see that complication. What I meant was, isn't the easiest way around that to let anyone and everyone take the Bounties? Especially since the bounties themselves are going to be a percentage of the total bounty? Kill-rights for all until the Bounty has been paid out? That way even if you used an alt or friend to murder yourself (which still doesn't make sense because your loosing money on every kill) that would only be one of who knows how many people.

I think the Kill-Right angle might be a little much. Not because its not a good idea but because I think in practice, a working bounty system will used to grief. Justifiably maybe or in some cases not but if the amendments only affect payouts then at least a bountied criminal could hide in Sec-space. Kinda like going to prison, :P. If bounties worked, a huge number of players would go hunting. Huge. Its a thing. I'm new though so maybe I am missing something?


It's a good idea to examine any new proposal for exploitation potential, but my response to the "griefing" concern you have raised can be summed up in the old cliche:

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"


Re: your other query: If anyone or everyone can take the bounty, then it's too easy to burn it off with fullly insured T1 ships. Although the perp doesn't gain anything (actually he will take a small loss) he can make the person who placed the bounty lose his money without getting revenge. It would cost the perp maybe 5-10% of what the person who placed the bounty spent to nullify the effect. Being able to get rid of a 500M bounty by spending perhaps 25-50M isn't something that should be achievable without some clever gameplay. like infiltrating a bounty corp or corrupting one of their members.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016