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PvE missions determined by PvP?

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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#141 - 2014-11-27 13:27:31 UTC
...and extending that marvellous bit of wisdom from Jen it doesn't matter whether I run missions or grief the everlasting bejeezes out of mission runners: whatever I do has negative consequences for someone, somewhere. Making them explode in a ball of fire isn't better or worse then undercutting their market orders with PVE loot.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#142 - 2014-11-27 13:33:56 UTC
^ this is truth.
Most folks don't realize that they are engaging in PVP, simply because they aren't making another player's ship go boom.
It's player versus player, not player violencing player.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#143 - 2014-11-27 13:39:10 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Because that is what highsec is to me - a place where you do not need to protect yourself - you just need to tank enough to survive the 20 odd seconds until CONCORD comes.


Veers, that is actually called protecting yourself, in case you were previously unaware. CONCORD doesn't protect you, they only punish your assailant. I don't know how many times this has to be explicitly explained to you, by devs and players alike. Bottom line, if you're relying on CONCORD for anything, then you are simply doing it wrong. What you're actually doing is relying on your tank.

What highsec is to you is irrelevant to what highsec actually is.



Well said, and not the least bit surprising that the guy you replied to doesn't get it lol.

If CONCORD were a protective element, it would appear as soon as you were aggressed, it would shut down all player controlled offensive weaponry on grid, and it would remote rep any 'victims' back to full health. CONCORD does not do that (nor do real police, I ride a desk now, but when i was a partolman I'd go to shooting calls, can't ever remember one case where my arrival at a location made a dude magically 'un-shot', I wish it did because I'd have asked for a raise).

CONCORD provides consequences for attackers. You can CREATE safety for yourself be creating a situation where you can survive long enoguh for them (the authorities) to arrive. This is what people in real life do when they have 'safe rooms' in their house, it allows them to survive till help can arrive, but THEY have to choose to build/install a safe room, the state doesn't do it for you or even mandate you do it for yourself.

it amazes me (in game and in real life) that some people aren't just negligent and careless about their own safety and well being, but are actually resistant to the idea that they have any kind of responsibility to themselves in the 1st place (because CONCORD/The police are supposed to take care of me because pay 'my 15bux/taxes').
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#144 - 2014-11-27 13:43:05 UTC
Leannor wrote:


It's all intertiwined ... and the fighting version of PVP is just another (albeit more visible and dramatic) effect of it. :)


-

Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
...and extending that marvellous bit of wisdom from Jen it doesn't matter whether I run missions or grief the everlasting bejeezes out of mission runners: whatever I do has negative consequences for someone, somewhere. Making them explode in a ball of fire isn't better or worse then undercutting their market orders with PVE loot.


Exactly. Indirectly, i'm engaging in pvp when i'm running anoms (trying to get escalations) and plexes in low sec while dodging people trying to kill me. Im engaging in market pvp when i sell my loot for 0.01 isk less than that other guy, etc etc.

Making people explode is vital for this game's economy, but it's not all there is, competition takes many forms.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#145 - 2014-11-27 15:38:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Because that is what highsec is to me - a place where you do not need to protect yourself - you just need to tank enough to survive the 20 odd seconds until CONCORD comes.


Veers, that is actually called protecting yourself, in case you were previously unaware. CONCORD doesn't protect you, they only punish your assailant. I don't know how many times this has to be explicitly explained to you, by devs and players alike. Bottom line, if you're relying on CONCORD for anything, then you are simply doing it wrong. What you're actually doing is relying on your tank.

What highsec is to you is irrelevant to what highsec actually is.



Well said, and not the least bit surprising that the guy you replied to doesn't get it lol.

If CONCORD were a protective element, it would appear as soon as you were aggressed, it would shut down all player controlled offensive weaponry on grid, and it would remote rep any 'victims' back to full health. CONCORD does not do that (nor do real police, I ride a desk now, but when i was a partolman I'd go to shooting calls, can't ever remember one case where my arrival at a location made a dude magically 'un-shot', I wish it did because I'd have asked for a raise).

CONCORD provides consequences for attackers. You can CREATE safety for yourself be creating a situation where you can survive long enoguh for them (the authorities) to arrive. This is what people in real life do when they have 'safe rooms' in their house, it allows them to survive till help can arrive, but THEY have to choose to build/install a safe room, the state doesn't do it for you or even mandate you do it for yourself.

it amazes me (in game and in real life) that some people aren't just negligent and careless about their own safety and well being, but are actually resistant to the idea that they have any kind of responsibility to themselves in the 1st place (because CONCORD/The police are supposed to take care of me because pay 'my 15bux/taxes').


Clueless as always...protection doesn't require instant appearance and the prevention of all harm. Protection in the game, just like in RL, requires responding to criminal acts, stopping a crime in progress, and punishing the perps. Oh, exactly what CONCORD does. Perhaps you need....a dictionary? Protection doesn't require making people "un-shot." It does require showing up and TRYING to stop them getting shot in the first place.

The rest of your post just demonstrates further comprehension difficulties. Perhaps English is not your native language? Whatever it may be, CONCORD, as any law enforcement agency, attempt to protect highsec from bad people. Like any law enforcement agency, they respond to crimes when they occur, rather than preventing them from occurring at all.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#146 - 2014-11-27 15:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Veers Belvar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well said, and not the least bit surprising that the guy you replied to doesn't get it lol.

If CONCORD were a protective element, it would appear as soon as you were aggressed, it would shut down all player controlled offensive weaponry on grid, and it would remote rep any 'victims' back to full health. CONCORD does not do that (nor do real police, I ride a desk now, but when i was a partolman I'd go to shooting calls, can't ever remember one case where my arrival at a location made a dude magically 'un-shot', I wish it did because I'd have asked for a raise).

CONCORD provides consequences for attackers. You can CREATE safety for yourself be creating a situation where you can survive long enoguh for them (the authorities) to arrive. This is what people in real life do when they have 'safe rooms' in their house, it allows them to survive till help can arrive, but THEY have to choose to build/install a safe room, the state doesn't do it for you or even mandate you do it for yourself.

it amazes me (in game and in real life) that some people aren't just negligent and careless about their own safety and well being, but are actually resistant to the idea that they have any kind of responsibility to themselves in the 1st place (because CONCORD/The police are supposed to take care of me because pay 'my 15bux/taxes').


Clueless as always...protection doesn't require instant appearance and the prevention of all harm. Protection in the game, just like in RL, requires responding to criminal acts, stopping a crime in progress, and punishing the perps. Oh, exactly what CONCORD does. Perhaps you need....a dictionary? Protection doesn't require making people "un-shot." It does require showing up and TRYING to stop them getting shot in the first place.

The rest of your post just demonstrates further comprehension difficulties. Perhaps English is not your native language? Whatever it may be, CONCORD, as any law enforcement agency, attempt to protect highsec from bad people. Like any law enforcement agency, they respond to crimes when they occur, rather than preventing them from occurring at all.


The word for this is psychosis and it's a real call for help. I often wonder is people suffering from these kinds of Maladies ever realize they have a problem.

This guy unwittingly proves an old point of mind about high sec though, like some (affluent) locales in real life (such as the one Veers said he comes from, big surprise), High Sec gives this false sense of protection which (ironically) makes the place even more dangerous as it's residents become so lax as to not be able to take even minimal self preservation precautions (like locking a car door or tanking a mining ship).

People that come from these real life locales tend to be unable to fend for themselves in other places (ever seen someone from a rich enclave have their car breakdown in 'the ghetto' and then they call 911? I have, and it is hilarious).. Likewise, the longer one stays in high sec after 'birth', the less likely that player will be able to acclimate themselves to the realities of life outside of high sec. Many of them turn into Veerites and beg CCP for even more safety beyond the insanely generous and inappropriate amounts provided already.
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-11-27 15:52:09 UTC
What you’re seeking to express, I think, is that all law enforcement (I’m pretty sure without exception) do so by threat of punishment. (This definition is taken from Law study).

We have laws, which all carry penalties should you break them. Contrary to popular mis-understanding, the Police are there to enforce the law, by catching criminals and punish them. They are not there to stop crimes occurring in the first place (that is for Science Fiction and Minority Report to deal with).

Concord do do one thing differently though, they also act as judge, jury and executioner as well as police. But this is because all events are trackable in eve, and guilt is without doubt, whislt folloing the ingame coded rules – thus decisions can be black and white (contrary to RL law where you need proof etc).

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#148 - 2014-11-27 16:07:07 UTC
Leannor wrote:
What you’re seeking to express, I think, is that all law enforcement (I’m pretty sure without exception) do so by threat of punishment. (This definition is taken from Law study).

We have laws, which all carry penalties should you break them. Contrary to popular mis-understanding, the Police are there to enforce the law, by catching criminals and punish them. They are not there to stop crimes occurring in the first place (that is for Science Fiction and Minority Report to deal with).

Concord do do one thing differently though, they also act as judge, jury and executioner as well as police. But this is because all events are trackable in eve, and guilt is without doubt, whislt folloing the ingame coded rules – thus decisions can be black and white (contrary to RL law where you need proof etc).


Exactly...this is what the "CONCORD isn't the police...blah, blah, blah, just a cost mechanic" folks don't get. No one is claiming CONCORD should stop crimes from occurring, just like the police don't. CONCORD is here to stop crimes ONCE THEY ARRIVE ON THE SCENE, and to punish the criminals afterwards, which deters future crime from occurring. That is all. And that most certainly is a form of protection. Highsec is a heck of a lot safer than lowsec because of CONCORD.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#149 - 2014-11-27 16:08:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


The word for this is psychosis and it's a real call for help. I often wonder is people suffering from these kinds of Maladies ever realize they have a problem.

This guy unwittingly proves an old point of mind about high sec though, like some (affluent) locales in real life (such as the one Veers said he comes from, big surprise), High Sec gives this false sense of protection which (ironically) makes the place even more dangerous as it's residents become so lax as to not be able to take even minimal self preservation precautions (like locking a car door or tanking a mining ship).

People that come from these real life locales tend to be unable to fend for themselves in other places (ever seen someone from a rich enclave have their car breakdown in 'the ghetto' and then they call 911? I have, and it is hilarious).. Likewise, the longer one stays in high sec after 'birth', the less likely that player will be able to acclimate themselves to the realities of life outside of high sec. Many of them turn into Veerites and beg CCP for even more safety beyond the insanely generous and inappropriate amounts provided already.


#clueless
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#150 - 2014-11-27 16:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protection

Quote:
pro·tec·tion
noun \prə-ˈtek-shən\

: the state of being kept from harm, loss, etc. : the state of being protected

: something that keeps a person or thing from being harmed, lost, etc. : something that protects someone or something

: a device (such as a condom) that is used during sex to prevent pregnancy or the spread of diseases


lol at the guy who said English must not be my 1st language not understanding he's using an English word incorrectly. CONCORD (like real life people like me ) don't provide "protection".

Double lol at the civilian who thinks he knows what cops do. Law Enforcement helps provide for an orderly society (and orderly societies are more productive than chaotic ones), people provide for their own safety. My RL job is to uphold the law (and thus order) and keep the peace, not play bodyguard for hapless folks who can't be bothered to look out for themselves.

Same applies to the law. Laws don't protect. No one has ever had a bullet deflected because a random law book jumped up and intercepted a bullet. The law against murder doesn't prevent people from being murdered, it gives society a tool to punish that specific murderer so that that specific murderer can't murder more innocent people. Convicting (or even executing) one murderer does nothing to the rest of the murdering public.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#151 - 2014-11-27 16:22:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protection

Quote:
pro·tec·tion
noun \prə-ˈtek-shən\

: the state of being keptfrom harm, loss, etc. : the state of being protected

: something that keeps a person or thing from being harmed, lost, etc. : something that protects someone or something

: a device (such as a condom) that is used during sex to prevent pregnancy or the spread of diseases


lol at the guy who said English must not be my 1st language not understanding he's using an English word incorrectly. CONCORD (like real life people like me ) don't provide "protection".

Double lol at the civilian who thinks he knows what cops do. Law Enforcement helps provide for an orderly society (and orderly societies are more productive than chaotic ones), people provide for their own safety. My RL job is to uphold the law (and thus order) and keep the peace, not play bodyguard for hapless folks who can't be bothered to look out for themselves.

Same applies to the law. Laws don't protect. No one has ever had a bullet deflected because a random law book jumped up and intercepted a bullet. The law against murder doesn't prevent people from being murdered, it gives society a tool to punish that specific murderer so that that specific murderer can't murder more innocent people. Convicting (or even executing) one murderer does nothing to the rest of the murdering public.


Wrong....Police and laws are a DETERRENT to committing crime. They PREVENT criminals from committing it in the first place, which keeps people from being harmed. If assault and battery were legal, there would be more assaults and batteries. The fact that we have laws against them and substantial punishments as well, deters people from doing them in the first place. That is absolutely a form of protection. Not to mention the police arriving on scene and stopping someone in the process from completing the crime, that is also a form of protection.

That you claim to be in law enforcement and yet seem blissfully unaware of how the legal system works, or the deterrent value of laws and punishments, is....troubling.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#152 - 2014-11-27 16:24:36 UTC
Quote:
5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

Thread closed.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department