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Alpha gank delay
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Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#41 - 2014-11-27 03:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Cracking down on multi-boxing. Maybe they will crack down on exploits.


Just because you call it an exploit, does not make it so. Hitting your MWD, then hitting your cloak, is a tactic that has been around for ages, and is well-established. Only CCP can change my word "tactic" to your "exploit." So long as it is not foolproof, they are unlikely to do that.

Quote:
In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.


There, I looked the word up for you.



OH GOD, EVERYONE LIVING IN WH'S WITH A POS ARE EXPLOITING! ALERT THEM QUICK BEFORE CCP BANS THEM!

CCP has gotten all kinds of stuff they didn't intend that are perfectly fine by their rules. Us players that vastly outnumber devs will always find ways to do things that the dev's didn't intend.

Nothing is an exploit unless it violates the EULA, or CCP defines it as an exploit. MWD+cloak? Nope, not an exploit, but also not intended. Webbing allies into warp? No, not intended. Living in WH's? Not intended. Any of them exploits? Nyet.

Oh and remember jet can mining? Not intended. Using rr + drones to pull room aggro? Not intended.

There's all kinds of stuff CCP didn't see coming that is not an exploit.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#42 - 2014-11-27 03:31:59 UTC
Eve is a sandbox. They give us the tools, we run with them. By your definition, people living in WH's is arguably an exploit. The developers never intended that. Even by your definition, you have not established that cloak/MWD mechanics are not working as intended. We would need a citation to establish that as a fact.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#43 - 2014-11-27 03:52:37 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Eve is a sandbox. They give us the tools, we run with them. By your definition, people living in WH's is arguably an exploit. The developers never intended that. Even by your definition, you have not established that cloak/MWD mechanics are not working as intended. We would need a citation to establish that as a fact.


Your turn to look something up.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-11-27 04:20:04 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Quote:
In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.


There, I looked the word up for you.

CCP defines exploiting differently in EVE Online because they want us players to find new ways to play the game. They have chosen to not consider your common insta-warp techniques to be exploits, and usually will take the same stance with anything you can easily accomplish in-game regardless of how underhanded a technique it may be, or how effective it is on the unsuspecting. They just don't want to punish players for emergent gameplay.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#45 - 2014-11-27 05:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.

And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality.


The tank doesn't buy you any time, a ship scan and a calculation later the right number of ships are waiting. However, you can fly a ship without modules if you have a good scout.

I moved into a system that was apparently full of reds months ago. Then it was mostly blue but people would hide in dock and change systems. Now I am part of getting us more organised. We undock if we know we will wipe the invaders out. It is a death trap. No good fights, no easy kills. Almost a certainty that you will either die to us or to another fleet that will lock you into the system.

Tell me again about victim mentalities.
Doesn't buy you any time? 120k EHP requires 11 Tornadoes. They cost about 100m each and people aren't going to throw 1.1bn at your 400m ship and have a 16s cycle time.
Catalysts on the other hand, this wouldn't affect. They have 1.8s(?) cycle time anyway, so where does that leave freighters? Still dying, because the anti-gank logi is terrible.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#46 - 2014-11-27 06:05:50 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
CCP defines exploiting differently in EVE Online because they want us players to find new ways to play the game. They have chosen to not consider your common insta-warp techniques to be exploits, and usually will take the same stance with anything you can easily accomplish in-game regardless of how underhanded a technique it may be, or how effective it is on the unsuspecting. They just don't want to punish players for emergent gameplay.


So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#47 - 2014-11-27 06:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon?



Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.

Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-11-27 06:50:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So, if you find a weakness in ship design that gives you no signature radius and 20000 tank boost, you think they won't nerf it? How about Tengus, think they aren't going to be "re-balanced" / nerfed soon?

How many people have been banned because they were flying Tengus?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#49 - 2014-11-27 06:55:21 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
How many people have been banned because they were flying Tengus?


How many people were banned for using the MWD/ Cloak trick?

This is getting daft. You shouldn't need to stand on your head and juggle balls to chew bubble gum. Roll


Now back to alpha delay on ALL ships.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#50 - 2014-11-27 07:16:42 UTC
need to survive a gank? roll with an escort armada of griffins.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-11-27 08:21:10 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
How many people were banned for using the MWD/ Cloak trick?

None. How many people have been banned for fitting large faction neuts on their Curses? I bet the answer is the same.

Now:
How many people have been banned for collecting their own bounties by filling their cargoholds with value-inflated items?
How many people have been banned for using infinite tracking guns?
How many people have been banned for POS reactor duping?


The moral? Actual exploits result in actual bans. Imaginary exploits result in shiptoasting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-11-27 08:40:58 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.

Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank.

Tengus may or may not be slightly more overpowered than other strategic cruisers, but the fact remains that strategic cruisers are retardedly overpowered.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#53 - 2014-11-27 08:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Two days ago I flew in a Tengu fleet. Yesterday I flew in a Legion fleet. Today I flew in a mixed Proteus/Loki fleet.

Are CCP going to nerf Tengu's? Dunno, but I highly suspect that the whining about Tengu's is far out of proportion to their comparable strength. Especially when armor T3's can spare midslots to spread TD's on rail Tengu's without sacrificing tank.

Tengus may or may not be slightly more overpowered than other strategic cruisers, but the fact remains that strategic cruisers are retardedly overpowered.


And maybe when we get to a point where the only subcap that doesn't get completely wiped or crippled out by a well timed bomb wave are sig tanking t3's and double plated trimarked BS's, we can start considering nerfing t3's.

Do you see cruiser doctrines? No. How about BC? Nope. How about shield BS? Very rarely.

The only viable fleet concepts for large scale fighting are those that are extremely difficult to land bombs on due to how they are flown (Slippery Petes), and those that don't die or drop to low fractions of their EHP with one volley of bombs and die in two (Armor t3's, some rare Armor HAC's, and heavily buffered BS's.

So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#54 - 2014-11-27 09:04:02 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
[quote=Reaver Glitterstim]
So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.


This delay would help counter them somewhat.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#55 - 2014-11-27 11:15:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
[quote=Reaver Glitterstim]
So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.


This delay would help counter them somewhat.
No, no they wouldn't. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you want to happen, then it's not going to affect anything except frigate battles. Bombs are all launched in 1 wave, sometimes multiple waves. Yes, multiple bombs are launched outside a 1.5s timeframe but they're not by 1 ship. And then they has a 10m (?) reactivation delay. Far outside your 1.5s delay. And a large majority of guns have >1.5s cycle time, except smalls (I think), so how will this affect anything except those battles with people with <1.5s cycle time on their weapons? People die to bomber fleets because 6.4-8k*7(?) damage applied in a few seconds, people die (to bombs) because it's alpha.
Unless what you mean is a 1.5s delay before attacks. Which is pretty unfair to everyone except bombers, because they see the people exiting warp, which gives them time to start aligning. If they don't warp in time, sucks to be them. And in the case of freighter ganks, this is completely useless, because the freighters get bumped. All this means is that the logi have time to lock them. But what's the point of that? I've never seen more than 2-3 freighters on a single gate in Uedama, and the logi shouldn't have a problem locking all of them, so they can respond instantly anyway. What does this change, at all?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#56 - 2014-11-27 11:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
[quote=Reaver Glitterstim]
So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.


This delay would help counter them somewhat.
No, no they wouldn't. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you want to happen, then it's not going to affect anything except frigate battles. Bombs are all launched in 1 wave, sometimes multiple waves. Yes, multiple bombs are launched outside a 1.5s timeframe but they're not by 1 ship. And then they has a 10m (?) reactivation delay. Far outside your 1.5s delay. And a large majority of guns have >1.5s cycle time, except smalls (I think), so how will this affect anything except those battles with people with <1.5s cycle time on their weapons? People die to bomber fleets because 6.4-8k*7(?) damage applied in a few seconds, people die (to bombs) because it's alpha.
Unless what you mean is a 1.5s delay before attacks. Which is pretty unfair to everyone except bombers, because they see the people exiting warp, which gives them time to start aligning. If they don't warp in time, sucks to be them. And in the case of freighter ganks, this is completely useless, because the freighters get bumped. All this means is that the logi have time to lock them. But what's the point of that? I've never seen more than 2-3 freighters on a single gate in Uedama, and the logi shouldn't have a problem locking all of them, so they can respond instantly anyway. What does this change, at all?


Bombs hit targets. No matter how much damage is done, it only does 55% of eHP.
Pretend logi have everyone locked up in the gang.
They have 1.5 seconds to start repping that gang.
Now wave of bombs from squad 2 hits.
Another 55% of total eHP is taken off. If any ships have less than 56% eHP they die.
There is no delay now. A timer starts counting down before you have alpha protection again.
Volley 2,3 and so forth keep coming

The other option I suggested is that logi can extend tank on ships, give them a temporary boost to help absorb the alpha.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2014-11-27 11:31:25 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Do you see cruiser doctrines?



FYF would like a word.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-11-27 21:01:42 UTC
Anhenka / Reaver Glitterstim
Do you see cruiser doctrines? Yep.
How about BC? Very yep.


So you want to whine about t3's? Get me some godamn bomber nerfs. Heavy ones.
Bomber nerfs already incoming, if they haven't landed on grid yet.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#59 - 2014-11-28 06:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on?

Scouting.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Jenshae Chiroptera
#60 - 2014-12-04 14:56:32 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I am sure somewhere that I meantioned the MWD trick. Anyway, it is an exploit work around and when they fix it to how they intende the ship to work, what will you fall back on?

Scouting.


Already doing that. It is so tedious and painful moving this brick in mud and it is fitted for speed.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
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