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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion
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Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#181 - 2014-11-26 14:36:25 UTC
Ok if we give ACs a bit more falloff, we should also give beams a bit more optimal. Especially for both at the medium size. And then we could also talk about powergrid costs. So much to do. Fozzie and company have been comparatively quiet lately. Must be holidays approaching. I hope they can keep making eve better, because while it will never be perfect, it is better due to their work.Smile

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#182 - 2014-11-26 15:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
It's simple as fu***

By buffing in all way other weapon platform , combined to the TE nerf (who have HURT A LOT Autocanon in all way) Autocanon have COMPLETELY be removed from the Game

For Exemples
Before , i remember that 1 years ago , we fitted usually Myrmidon with AC , because tracking , no cap use , etc etc
Today , it's blaster , because even in Null Ammo , that's deal more damage at same distance than BarrageLoaded Autocanon...
Before , The Rupture was the "way to go" in Pvp with an effective and good ship , and the Stabber was a great solo/small gang cruiser for cheap and effective
Today ... how can i say ... they are just the worst ship to bring in a fleet and i didn't see it since 1 years or less (or only 1 or 2 ...)

Autocanon in general suffer from 2 things
In Close range , they are doomed by blaster
In Med-Range/Kite Range , they are doomed by Lazers and/or Missiles
So Even with the versatility of selectable damage type and no cap use , that give NO advantage if you can't project it without effenciency than a BlasterShortRange weapon

A CloseRangeWeapon for brawling better with long T2 range ammo than a MedRangeWeapon with DPS bonus ... CCP you're drunk ?

I can't remember the last time i've seen a Fleet/Gang of Vagabond (or Even Stabber ... it's an other topic ..)

Buffing Lazor/Blaster/Rails/Beam was really cool and helpfully and needed
But remove an ENTIRE Race/Gameplay from the game aren't cool

I think it's more about the Minmatar bonuses ship himself than the Autocanons in general
But buffing a bit (or more ... i can dream) Minnie hulls/weapons would be better for the Game , and will add a way more diversity than playing Ishtar/Tengu Online for any fleet/roam we want to do

Especially the Vagabond , they have completely disapear from the game , and flying them effectively are so fu***ing hard that's remove the entire part of what we play Eve : Have fun
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#183 - 2014-11-26 15:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Deacon Abox wrote:
Ok if we give ACs a bit more falloff, we should also give beams a bit more optimal. Especially for both at the medium size. And then we could also talk about powergrid costs. So much to do. Fozzie and company have been comparatively quiet lately. Must be holidays approaching. I hope they can keep making eve better, because while it will never be perfect, it is better due to their work.Smile


There are quite a few weapon systems that need tweaks after gallente uber buff. Blasters, rails and drones are all quite good now. acs are meh, arty is difficult to fit as a legit weapon system, beams are in a bad spot as well. Heavy missiles are just terrible. I suspect we are seeing the effects of power creep from overbuffing gallente. Now most other weapon systems are way outclassed in their role. As noted before, TE nerf hit minny hard, plus after tiericide, minmatar have lost most of their speed advantages. So now they dont apply decent damage at their intended engagement ranges and are easier to catch, but their tanks havent been improved. Minmatar tanks used to be speed and range control.

Gal weapon systems are holding a monopoly on weapon versatility.

Long range? Drones/rails (as seen by railgu, eagle, ishtar/domi doctrines)
Short range? Blasters obliterate anything in their optimal

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#184 - 2014-11-26 15:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
.
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#185 - 2014-11-26 15:31:07 UTC
bad editing ... sorry
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#186 - 2014-11-26 16:34:38 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Honestly, after skimming the thread I think the main complaint is that people keep trying to use autocannons(specifically) like blasters or lasers. A basic solution is to kite blasters and get into nose bleed range with lasers. Something that autocannons out perform their competition respectively very well. Which is to say that range control is the primary concern of a Minmatar hull, and, considering that they have innate and bonused advantages to speed and sometimes agility, this should make them exceedingly good at that role.

So yeah, -1.

Couldn't be more wrong.

Please explain to me how projectiles are on par with drones.

A Vagabond will literally never break the tank of a solo fit HAC, and if it can, it's out damaged hugely.

To be fair, a vagabond will never die to another solo fit HAC either...

So a Vagabond is no threat to a solo HAC (outside of massive stupidity on the part of the solo HAC), but a solo HAC is no threat to a Vagabond (outside of massive stupidity on the part of the Vagabond)

The thing that nobody in this thread seems to be taking into account is that a group of 3-4 vagabonds represents a serious threat to a similar group of 3-4 HACs, but are still immune to danger from those HACs...

TL;DR
people underestimate the ability to disengage.

PS: wrong is an absolute state and not subject to gradation... something is either wrong or it isnt there is no such thing as "more wrong"


"More wrong" is an expression. Context is a thing? Weird, I know.

And no, you are wrong as well. In an ideal situation, sure a vagabond should be able to kite a Deimos endlessly. The problem is it can never kill the Deimos while the Deimos can kill the Vagabond.

So, what if you are tackled by an interceptor or even a suicide t1 frigate? The Deimos catches you and you lose because you have no chance in a brawl with a Deimos. Etc. etc. etc. A rail Deimos? Hope your 4 mid slot kite Vagabond has a scram.

Of course everything is situational. The point is that Vagabonds, because of the weakness of Autocannons (possibly the slot layout, seriously a shield tank cruiser with 5 lows and 4 mids), are just in a bad place with the inability to really do anything as effectively as other cruisers of the same class.

Vagabonds are glorified frigate killers. I can kill frigates just fine with a stabber.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#187 - 2014-11-26 16:49:49 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Honestly, after skimming the thread I think the main complaint is that people keep trying to use autocannons(specifically) like blasters or lasers. A basic solution is to kite blasters and get into nose bleed range with lasers. Something that autocannons out perform their competition respectively very well. Which is to say that range control is the primary concern of a Minmatar hull, and, considering that they have innate and bonused advantages to speed and sometimes agility, this should make them exceedingly good at that role.

So yeah, -1.

Couldn't be more wrong.

Please explain to me how projectiles are on par with drones.

A Vagabond will literally never break the tank of a solo fit HAC, and if it can, it's out damaged hugely.

To be fair, a vagabond will never die to another solo fit HAC either...

So a Vagabond is no threat to a solo HAC (outside of massive stupidity on the part of the solo HAC), but a solo HAC is no threat to a Vagabond (outside of massive stupidity on the part of the Vagabond)

The thing that nobody in this thread seems to be taking into account is that a group of 3-4 vagabonds represents a serious threat to a similar group of 3-4 HACs, but are still immune to danger from those HACs...

TL;DR
people underestimate the ability to disengage.

PS: wrong is an absolute state and not subject to gradation... something is either wrong or it isnt there is no such thing as "more wrong"


"More wrong" is an expression. Context is a thing? Weird, I know.

And no, you are wrong as well. In an ideal situation, sure a vagabond should be able to kite a Deimos endlessly. The problem is it can never kill the Deimos while the Deimos can kill the Vagabond.

So, what if you are tackled by an interceptor or even a suicide t1 frigate? The Deimos catches you and you lose because you have no chance in a brawl with a Deimos. Etc. etc. etc. A rail Deimos? Hope your 4 mid slot kite Vagabond has a scram.

Of course everything is situational. The point is that Vagabonds, because of the weakness of Autocannons (possibly the slot layout, seriously a shield tank cruiser with 5 lows and 4 mids), are just in a bad place with the inability to really do anything as effectively as other cruisers of the same class.

Vagabonds are glorified frigate killers. I can kill frigates just fine with a stabber.



Not to mention, if on a gate or warp-in, the deimos will out accelerate the vagabond due to higher agility (armor is more agile than shield somehow?)

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#188 - 2014-11-26 17:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Not to mention, if on a gate or warp-in, the deimos will out accelerate the vagabond due to higher agility (armor is more agile than shield somehow?)


We can say the same things for all Minmatar ships
They have speed , but no agility

A Thorax can align out/Warp out faster than a Stabber
A Omen can reach his max speed faster than a Rupture
A Sacrilege can slingshoot easily a Vagabond


CCP are drunk , the Races who must be the KingKitter with versatile , fast and agile ship and guns are in fact the worst agile , have the most ****** weapon plateform of the game , and use his speed , not to dictate range of engagement , but only for running away for the most time (if you're not slingshoot/scram/web/alphaed of course ...)
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#189 - 2014-11-26 17:05:58 UTC
Nodire Hermetz wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Not to mention, if on a gate or warp-in, the deimos will out accelerate the vagabond due to higher agility (armor is more agile than shield somehow?)


We can say the same things for all Minmatar ships
They have speed , but no agility

A Thorax can align out/Warp out faster than a Stabber
A Omen can reach his max speed faster than a Rupture
A Sacrilege can slingshoot easily a Vagabond


CCP are drunk , the Races who must be the KingKitter with versatile , fast and agile ship and guns are in fact the worst agile , have the most ****** weapon plateform of the game , and use his speed , not to dictate range of engagement , but only for running away for the most time (if you're not slingshoot/scram/web/alphaed of course ...)


Id say ac's are not the worst in the game, heavy missiles are. But yea, projectiles in general need some love, along with every other weapon system that isnt attached to a gal hull.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#190 - 2014-11-26 17:21:27 UTC
Being in Gal / Cal FW, this needs to become a threadnaught. I am tired of dealing with overpowered Gallente hulls all day every day.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#191 - 2014-11-26 23:21:55 UTC
#PrayForBlueAnswer
The Drunken Taoist
Doomheim
#192 - 2014-11-27 06:42:07 UTC
I once did a quick analysis of minnie ships compared to the other races and came to the conclusion that a 5% buff to agility across the frigate/cruiser lines and an extra 5% speed buff to Ruppie would put minnie back in a more favourable but not OP position.

These changes would make the minnie ships the most agile and fasted ships by a tiny margin 1-2%. This allows some of the 'flexibility' that minnie is supposed to be famous for without making them OP by buffing their weapon systems as well.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#193 - 2014-11-27 18:30:47 UTC
Nodire Hermetz wrote:


A Thorax can align out/Warp out faster than a Stabber
A Omen can reach his max speed faster than a Rupture
A Sacrilege can slingshoot easily a Vagabond


CCP are drunk , the Races who must be the KingKitter with versatile , fast and agile ship and guns are in fact the worst agile , have the most ****** weapon plateform of the game , and use his speed , not to dictate range of engagement , but only for running away for the most time (if you're not slingshoot/scram/web/alphaed of course ...)


Rax has a 10km engagement range with blasters, stabber gets twice that range with its close range ammo and a higher speed so it can continue to dictate that range.
Rupture gets a utility high which means it can use a neut to cap out the cap hungry omen
The same can be said for a lot of ships vs other ships, this is where pilot skill comes into play.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2014-11-27 20:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Daichi Yamato wrote:


One thing you could do with projectiles on the other hand is change the range modifiers on the ammo from optimal to fall off and make the ammo choices a bit more meaningful.


Oh look, a good idea that doesn't involve power creep buffing. The non-phased plasma/fusion/emp ammo for projectiles are ridiculously pointless for autocannon usage. They need to be actual possible choices for useful combat and range addition at the cost of DPS loss.

All the other weapon systems got buffed because they sucked. Autocannons and artillery were the best weapons systems for a while. (back when the only ship I could fly of caldari without being useless was the drake) Now they are competitive with other weapon systems.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#195 - 2014-11-28 04:28:12 UTC
Quote:
Oh look, a good idea that doesn't involve power creep buffing. The non-phased plasma/fusion/emp ammo for projectiles are ridiculously pointless for autocannon usage.


The same change would utterly cripple ACs with close-range ammo. Ammo generally needs a rework, but this ain't it.

Quote:
All the other weapon systems got buffed because they sucked. Autocannons and artillery were the best weapons systems for a while.


A million years ago, perhaps. In the time directly before Retribution, they just went on the ships that didn't suck. Minmatar hulls are generally mediocre or bad right now - their nominal strengths are often hard to realize (fitting-wise and/or in terms of mid-battle implementation), don't actually exist (speed advantage is negligible in most case; the band between outperforming blasters and just being ineffective is extremely narrow), or scale very poorly (sig-tanking brawlers, say hi). In contrast, other hulls got buffed substantially at the same time as the weapons that went on them, which rather left winmatar in the dust.

If flexibility is supposed to be the Minmatar schtick, it certainly isn't borne out*. The Stabber is a feeble kiter and can only be used in close range with gimmick fits, though at least the utility highs give it some defense against solo tackle. The Rupture is too slow to dictate range or kite properly with a brawling fit, too fragile and limp-wristed to brawl effectively, and can't effectively use the utility high without gimping the tank or dps or mobility. The Slasher is great for 1v1s, but doesn't really work on larger scales. The Rifter is just bad. The Thrasher and Talwar are good because the hulls are superb for their functions, not because they're flexible and able to handle the full spectrum of encounters with a single fit.

*Of course, the problem with such a schtick is that you're either good at everything or bad at everything; the former is overpowered, the latter useless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#196 - 2014-11-28 05:37:50 UTC
And yet, here I am looking at getting a shipment of stabbers for the winter patch.
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#197 - 2014-11-29 03:24:47 UTC
with the new change about the medium pulse and scorch ammo , can we expect any rework on autocanon soon ?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#198 - 2014-11-29 13:55:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
And yet, here I am looking at getting a shipment of stabbers for the winter patch.



I like flying underdog ships, too.
But still, Minmatar Medium lineup is in a horrible shape.
To be honest i think it's actually far away from deserving the word 'shape'.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#199 - 2014-12-01 01:13:32 UTC
Winmatar pls.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#200 - 2014-12-01 03:33:11 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
Oh look, a good idea that doesn't involve power creep buffing. The non-phased plasma/fusion/emp ammo for projectiles are ridiculously pointless for autocannon usage.


The same change would utterly cripple ACs with close-range ammo. Ammo generally needs a rework, but this ain't it.


Not if they actually bothered to do it right when they rebalanced the ammo. It really is ridiculous how useless the high optimal ammo is considering how pathetically low the optimal is on ACs, not to mention the sheer level of DPS loss. It gets like half as much damage for 2km more optimal. I'll sure load that in a real hurry!

Now if they actually rebalanced the ammo (and at this time they completely went over ACs, of course) so that you had meaningful choices beyond which damage type you wanted, I'd be quite happy.