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Rifter engagement envelope
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Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#1 - 2014-11-26 00:57:06 UTC
If the frigate game is rock-paper-scissors, what is the Rifter good at beating?
The Drunken Taoist
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-11-26 02:40:05 UTC
A lot more things than the vast majority of plebs in eve think tbh.

Main thing it to think how to counter fit for your target. The rifter is very versatile boat. I love killing those stupid dual rep incursus' in a 'supa rifter' makes them mad as hell!
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-11-26 10:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Boozbaz wrote:
If the frigate game is rock-paper-scissors, what is the Rifter good at beating?

assuming AB fit for lo sec

let's see. No tracking bonus, low dps. Speed's nothing spectacular. Tank's sub par compared to other combat frigs

I'd say if you fly a rifter, most of the time you'll want to scram kite, and orbit slow laser boats with no tracking bonus.


So, no engaging faster ships with higher dps. No engaging long range weapon platforms unless you're considerably faster than them.

So what can a rifter comfortably kill, not counting pilots derps?
slower boats with blasters, kiters if you can catch them, really slow lasers with no tracking.

blaster incursus and merlin, neut tristan (coin toss), plate/trimark tormentors (coin toss), punishers, executioner might be close (only because of selectable damage vs EM damage not so good vs rifter, otherwise scorch will out dps a rifter by 40 to 50 dps at scram kiting range, and rifter ain't fast enough to close) but he can disengage easily, and same for rail atron, kiters if you land a scram, indeed.


other minnie frigs will eat you if they remotely know what they're doing, blaster atrons will eat you, properly fitted scram kiters will give you a really ahrd time (scram kite incursus will murder you hard), rockets will eat you, any TD will **** your day, any dual web will **** your day, pretty much any faction frig will eat you, spit you, and then stomp on your carcass.

basically, there's no reason to fly a rifter when you can fly a slasher.
Erehwon Rorschach
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2014-11-26 10:40:17 UTC
That's a very broad question.

What is the fitting of this Rifter?

Because your mum just couldn't say no.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#5 - 2014-11-26 14:20:38 UTC
Not that I'm any solo competent commentator. I pretty much suck at it. But I'd like to think I'm intelligent.P Intelligent when I pass on Rifters and Punishers. They are both rather lacking in anything. There are better options in both races for Frig. Of course really good soloers might fly these ships for the challenge, the bait, or whatever, and prevail.Shocked But your average solo incompetent, like myself, is just asking for another loss to fly these two ships. Sad

It is sad because back when there were tiers they were top of the line. But realistically there will always be some ship(s) that are less worthy than others. One can only hope that successive rounds of balancing bring the shrink the margins between combat utility among range of ships available. Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

The Drunken Taoist
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-11-26 20:59:18 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

So what can a rifter comfortably kill, not counting pilots derps?

basically, there's no reason to fly a rifter when you can fly a slasher.


Early in eve minnie ships couldn't 'comfortably kill' anything. People fly minnie when they had more SP than the average and more knowledge that was necessary to utilise their abilities. Back then people used to laugh when you brought out a minnie ship and curse the day you signed up when you killed them.

Then minnie became winmatar and every man and his dog would fly them because they were pvp in 'easy' mode but if you knew what you were doing rifters were pretty easy to kill.

The key to remember, one which pretty much everyone forgets all the time, is that this is pvp (Player v Player) not ship v ship. Yes looking at pure numbers a rifter is in a bad place right now. However you can still kill lots of things with them as most people just assume that they are crap and don't actually think before they engage.

My previous comment about dual rep incursus is prime example. The 'supa rifter' fit I mentioned is almost the direct counter to the dual rep incursus. it is designed to completely take out it's repping ability while still being able to keep and active tank and speed to sit at the edge of engagement range and whats the incursus die.

Most people who use the argument 'against a competent pilot' as an argument v any ship in game is thinking the wrong way about pvp. What your opponent flys is only one factor in the engagement.

For example I like to fly around in punishers with AB/web in the mids on an alt. I was sitting in a novice plex when a comet show up. So most people would think I'm dead. And most posters on the forum would shout this with full caps lock. Well guess what. He died within 30s of entering the plex. He was unable to control range and lasers can put out almost perfect 'on paper' dps when flown right. After looking at the killmail I found out the my opponent was only a month or so old. Now most of the 'pvp elite' on these forums will just shout 'pilot derp!' but who cares I went against and arguably superior ship in a gimp fit ship that 'should' have been killed every single time according to most.

This is Player v Player! not ship v ship! The only thing that the actual ships bring to the fight is different tactics/fits that you need to take into account in your engagement.

Oh and one last thing about rifter v slasher. Rifter is tougher and can put out way more dps than the slasher. If the slasher can hit a rifter then the rifter can hit the slasher for more. The slasher is faster and has more mids for 'tricky' fits with td's and such like but I have never backed away from a slasher fight as I just don't find them to be as much of a threat as a rifter and I love flying both.

Yes I'm bored at work right now P
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#7 - 2014-11-27 08:17:00 UTC
I wouldn't take blind fights with Atrons or RFFs just because they'll melt a Rifter with DPS if they're brawl fit or if they're annoyingly fit with AB + rails/arty then there's no chance the Rifter DPS will reach them.

Non-Succubus laser boats shouldn't be a problem for a properly-tanked Rifter, just force them into Scorch range and apply Fusion.

People who say the Rifter sucks just don't have Thermodynamics V trained.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-11-27 08:19:18 UTC
The Drunken Taoist wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

So what can a rifter comfortably kill, not counting pilots derps?

basically, there's no reason to fly a rifter when you can fly a slasher.


Early in eve minnie ships couldn't 'comfortably kill' anything. People fly minnie when they had more SP than the average and more knowledge that was necessary to utilise their abilities. Back then people used to laugh when you brought out a minnie ship and curse the day you signed up when you killed them.

Then minnie became winmatar and every man and his dog would fly them because they were pvp in 'easy' mode but if you knew what you were doing rifters were pretty easy to kill.

The key to remember, one which pretty much everyone forgets all the time, is that this is pvp (Player v Player) not ship v ship. Yes looking at pure numbers a rifter is in a bad place right now. However you can still kill lots of things with them as most people just assume that they are crap and don't actually think before they engage.

My previous comment about dual rep incursus is prime example. The 'supa rifter' fit I mentioned is almost the direct counter to the dual rep incursus. it is designed to completely take out it's repping ability while still being able to keep and active tank and speed to sit at the edge of engagement range and whats the incursus die.

Most people who use the argument 'against a competent pilot' as an argument v any ship in game is thinking the wrong way about pvp. What your opponent flys is only one factor in the engagement.

For example I like to fly around in punishers with AB/web in the mids on an alt. I was sitting in a novice plex when a comet show up. So most people would think I'm dead. And most posters on the forum would shout this with full caps lock. Well guess what. He died within 30s of entering the plex. He was unable to control range and lasers can put out almost perfect 'on paper' dps when flown right. After looking at the killmail I found out the my opponent was only a month or so old. Now most of the 'pvp elite' on these forums will just shout 'pilot derp!' but who cares I went against and arguably superior ship in a gimp fit ship that 'should' have been killed every single time according to most.

This is Player v Player! not ship v ship! The only thing that the actual ships bring to the fight is different tactics/fits that you need to take into account in your engagement.

Oh and one last thing about rifter v slasher. Rifter is tougher and can put out way more dps than the slasher. If the slasher can hit a rifter then the rifter can hit the slasher for more. The slasher is faster and has more mids for 'tricky' fits with td's and such like but I have never backed away from a slasher fight as I just don't find them to be as much of a threat as a rifter and I love flying both.

Yes I'm bored at work right now P



Well, you're right of course, but when a person asks for a ship's engagement envelope... well, you sorta gotta answer in a vacuum, assuming decent pilot vs decent pilot and all that, otherwise the only suitable answer would be "good pilot beats derp pilot"

And in that way, there's no denying the Rifter if not sub par because we don't feel like using the word... well, it has a limited engagement profile, at least xD

Can you win in a rifter? Indeed you can. Can you say you often have the odds in your favour in it? Nope, you generally cannot.

That's all i'm saying.

Also, i'm really bored at work as well, so let's have a wall of text battle of some sort, where in the end i call you a bitter vet and you tell me that i'm spoiled eve kid born in the era of tiericide hahahah
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-11-28 06:05:32 UTC
Ibis, or possibly a poorly-fit Velator.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#10 - 2014-11-28 08:09:40 UTC
Yeah Rifter is not looking like a solo ship. Even though I love it's model in comparison to the Slasher (slasher looks like a fly, whereas rifer looks like a solid combat ship), the Slasher seems to have it beat.
The Drunken Taoist
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-11-28 09:14:54 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Yeah Rifter is not looking like a solo ship. Even though I love it's model in comparison to the Slasher (slasher looks like a fly, whereas rifer looks like a solid combat ship), the Slasher seems to have it beat.


Mate just a heads up. In straight up damage/tank the rifter has the slasher beat hands down. The slasher cannot get the same DPS or tank and definitely not both at the same time. What the slasher does bring is the extra mid with can have things like ASB's, TD's etc etc

I love them both (Fave slasher is AC's, Neut and MSE tank) but the rifter is just so much more versatile than the slasher so you just never know how it's going to be fit whereas the slasher only has a very few number of 'tricky' fits that will pretty much make your decision to engage one.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-11-28 10:33:36 UTC
Since the tiercide best usage for rifter is staying docked.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#13 - 2014-11-28 10:35:28 UTC
Time to cross-train for the Worm.
Persifonne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-11-29 05:26:53 UTC
The Drunken Taoist wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Yeah Rifter is not looking like a solo ship. Even though I love it's model in comparison to the Slasher (slasher looks like a fly, whereas rifer looks like a solid combat ship), the Slasher seems to have it beat.


Mate just a heads up. In straight up damage/tank the rifter has the slasher beat hands down. The slasher cannot get the same DPS or tank and definitely not both at the same time. What the slasher does bring is the extra mid with can have things like ASB's, TD's etc etc

I love them both (Fave slasher is AC's, Neut and MSE tank) but the rifter is just so much more versatile than the slasher so you just never know how it's going to be fit whereas the slasher only has a very few number of 'tricky' fits that will pretty much make your decision to engage one.



Well m8 pretty sure most rifter vs slasher death duels are fough at 0m with 0 transversal masterm8
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#15 - 2014-11-29 07:05:12 UTC
The Rifter's biggest problem isn't slot layout or ship bonuses. It's the fitting grid. Before skills you are looking at 38 PG and 125 CPU. The latter is the absolute worst of all the combat and assault frigates and the former simply lacks the muscle to make up for it. When fitting the Rifter you invariably find yourself - after fitting propulsion, buffer, and point - downgrading the guns, leaving the fourth high slot empty, and still struggling to fill the remaining mid or low slots due to the horribad CPU.

The Rifter's calling card should be diversity and surprise. Artillery or AC? Shield or Arty? Extra DPS or neut? With two weak numbers on the fitting grid though it just can't quite pull it off. Artillery fits are almost always gimmicky and it's almost impossible to avoid two fitting mods/rigs. The ship really needs a power grid number between 45 and 51 to be competitive with the other rebalanced frigates. (Punisher has 57 PG. Tormentor has 50 PG. The Tristan only has a 35 PG, but with it's DPS in drones and only three highs and nine slots total that is acceptable.) I can go through other frigates and their grids but you get the idea.
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#16 - 2014-11-29 10:50:14 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
If the frigate game is rock-paper-scissors, what is the Rifter good at beating?

Paper. And dumb rocks. No chance in hell against scissors tho, don't even think about engaging.

pew pew
Dreadeye
Grumpy Old Bastards
#17 - 2014-11-29 11:56:07 UTC
go to youtube search for "eveiseasy" and "rifter"
check out suitonias guide on the rifter
The Drunken Taoist
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-11-29 12:47:28 UTC
Persifonne wrote:
The Drunken Taoist wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Yeah Rifter is not looking like a solo ship. Even though I love it's model in comparison to the Slasher (slasher looks like a fly, whereas rifer looks like a solid combat ship), the Slasher seems to have it beat.


Mate just a heads up. In straight up damage/tank the rifter has the slasher beat hands down. The slasher cannot get the same DPS or tank and definitely not both at the same time. What the slasher does bring is the extra mid with can have things like ASB's, TD's etc etc

I love them both (Fave slasher is AC's, Neut and MSE tank) but the rifter is just so much more versatile than the slasher so you just never know how it's going to be fit whereas the slasher only has a very few number of 'tricky' fits that will pretty much make your decision to engage one.



Well m8 pretty sure most rifter vs slasher death duels are fough at 0m with 0 transversal masterm8


I actually thought this was a constructive post......for 10 mins I looked at it and wondered what was wrong.....then I realised my browser had frozen and I was falling asleep.

Ah well.
Arla Sarain
#19 - 2014-11-29 14:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Rifter is basically an atron without the propulsion cap usage bonus.

It's bad. Atron out DPSs it in scram range and at Barrage falloff Rifter is just another plex rat.

Pretty crap ship outside of the novelty of being able to fit it with arties. Which pales in comparison to what Kestrels and Breachers do.

Maybe in a fleet fight it's a relatively cheap alternative in point range but there is no reason in wasting SP on it cos slicers.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#20 - 2014-11-29 19:03:55 UTC
The Drunken Taoist wrote:
I actually thought this was a constructive post......for 10 mins I looked at it and wondered what was wrong.....then I realised my browser had frozen and I was falling asleep.

Ah well.


yeh some of these responses make my head hurt, but it also hints at one of the major advantages of the Rifter: people think it's so bad that they'll engage you without really thinking about whether they're warping into a direct counter to their own fit.
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