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Crime & Punishment

 
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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......

Author
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#201 - 2014-11-21 19:58:55 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
The problem isn't the Skiff. The real problem is (still) the NPC corp issue.

Skiffs get 'sploded every day. One poor mechanic doesn't mean you nerf the other.
If that were fixed we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place, would we?


The ability for any capsuleer to stay in permamently or revert to membership of an NPC corporation should be disabled once a capsuleer is two months old. That's my two penneth on that chestnut. That change could be added to an improved NPE if we ever get one.

But the NPC corp issue compounds the situation but doesn't alter the fact that the Skiffs statistics need revising. The most recent rebalancing of the mining vessels was mainly done to stop the Mackinaw being 'go to' ship type for mining. The combined changes from that same rebalancing made the Skiff the 'best ship' although most miners haven't clicked that this is the case yet. One of CCPs core principles is that all ships have roles and there are no 'best ships' so the Skiff stats need to be changed.

Skiffs rarely get 'exploded' except if they are under wardec conditions. So many ships/pilots are required that it makes more sense, even not taking ISK into consideration, to attack a Freighter or Orca instead. I originally started this discussion on the basis of an EHP reduction but I now concur with others that a reduction in yield for the Skiff would lessen the damage it does to rocks. It would also remove it's current status as the 'best ship' for mining which would bring the Skiff back into the role based system.


The NPC corp issue should be solved through created better benefits for being in a corp. For most players, everything you get out of a corp could be gotten through a one man corp, mail list and private channel. I would like to see better benefits(simplest way would just be give very minor boosts to missioning, mining and ratting that have a monthly corp fee attached, so players are encouraged to group up and split the fee).
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#202 - 2014-11-24 01:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: GordonO
No they are not..

Thanks goodness I didn't choose a career in ganking.. it seems soo damn hard to attack someone knowing where they are, how they are fit and what fleet effects may be in play... and... and.. and I would have to find some friends to help me..
CCP.. you need to fix this ASAP.. for the sake of alt gankers all over new eden..Roll

... What next ??

Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2014-11-24 16:47:05 UTC
All high-sec ships are being balanced towards solo player vs CODE/CFC. If you're a lone pirate trying to make your mark, good luck to you.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-11-24 19:38:54 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
All high-sec ships are being balanced towards solo player vs CODE/CFC. If you're a lone pirate trying to make your mark, good luck to you.


Exactly all these highsec buffs hurt the newbies because they remove one entire profession from them. The mining barge ehp buff hurt the newbies.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#205 - 2014-11-25 10:38:33 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
The problem isn't the Skiff. The real problem is (still) the NPC corp issue.

Skiffs get 'sploded every day. One poor mechanic doesn't mean you nerf the other.
If that were fixed we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place, would we?


The ability for any capsuleer to stay in permamently or revert to membership of an NPC corporation should be disabled once a capsuleer is two months old. That's my two penneth on that chestnut. That change could be added to an improved NPE if we ever get one.

But the NPC corp issue compounds the situation but doesn't alter the fact that the Skiffs statistics need revising. The most recent rebalancing of the mining vessels was mainly done to stop the Mackinaw being 'go to' ship type for mining. The combined changes from that same rebalancing made the Skiff the 'best ship' although most miners haven't clicked that this is the case yet. One of CCPs core principles is that all ships have roles and there are no 'best ships' so the Skiff stats need to be changed.

Skiffs rarely get 'exploded' except if they are under wardec conditions. So many ships/pilots are required that it makes more sense, even not taking ISK into consideration, to attack a Freighter or Orca instead. I originally started this discussion on the basis of an EHP reduction but I now concur with others that a reduction in yield for the Skiff would lessen the damage it does to rocks. It would also remove it's current status as the 'best ship' for mining which would bring the Skiff back into the role based system.


The NPC corp issue should be solved through created better benefits for being in a corp. For most players, everything you get out of a corp could be gotten through a one man corp, mail list and private channel. I would like to see better benefits(simplest way would just be give very minor boosts to missioning, mining and ratting that have a monthly corp fee attached, so players are encouraged to group up and split the fee).


I have no problem with an 'encouragement' for people to join player run corps. But I fear that it would not work and so the stick may bring better results than the carrot.
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#206 - 2014-11-25 11:17:21 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I have no problem with an 'encouragement' for people to join player run corps. But I fear that it would not work and so the stick may bring better results than the carrot.


Want to solve the NPC character WD evasion-issue in a brutal, but highly effective manner?

Allow the ability to Wardec an NPC corp by joining the opposing Faction Warfare militia. Buff the Faction Police forces according to security rating of the system. -1.0 systems - cops are Grade-A, down to -0.5 systems - same as they are now

End results?
NPC characters will only find security (even greater than they do now) in 1.0 systems. As they wish to venture out into lesser sec, the risks get progressively larger. Player-owned corps (which can be wardecced conventionally) see no difference. Concord mechanics need not be affected, as this is Warfare.

additionally,
FW participants can also take to raiding opposing state systems (at progressively greater risk, of course) and blow up the opposing NPC characters. They are enemies of their state, after all. They could even offer their services, as a Para-Military Merc would, to deal with those pesky-NPC war dodgers...

Oh, and if you wish to visit the other trade hubs, you might want to check your Faction standings first.Blink
Zedutchman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2014-11-25 15:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedutchman
I'm about as hard-core care beary as it gets. Ive' lost about 3 ships to code in the last 2 months....

However, I do think there needs to be some drastic changes to high-sec...... NPC corp mechanics..... And bot fleets in general.


Yes I lose ships but that's eve. It really is too damn easy for these huge bot/multi box fleets to do what-ever they want.



I know at one point CCP banned about 25% of their user base for botting. I'm curious to know when they decided that it's OK now.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#208 - 2014-11-25 15:52:48 UTC
Zedutchman wrote:
I'm about as hard-core care beary as it gets. Ive' lost about 3 ships to code in the last 2 months....

However, I do think there needs to be some drastic changes to high-sec...... NPC corp mechanics..... And bot fleets in general.


Yes I lose ships but that's eve. It really is too damn easy for these huge bot/multi box fleets to do what-ever they want.



I know at one point CCP banned about 25% of their user base for botting. I'm curious to know when they decided that it's OK now.


I obviously don't have reliable stats, but I know for a fact that a player that is running botting software who I have reported several times using the 'report bot' feature is still merrily running them 23/7 in Procurers and has been for months. I am not sure if CCP staff cuts have reduced the number of people looking for botters, or the guy is just using a good macro program that leave no conclusive evidence, but it is frustrating to see someone blatantly cheating for so long go unpunished.

In any case, changes to NPC/player corp mechanics, and some changes to make mining less scalable by multiboxing, would go a long way to combating not only botters, but also the multiboxers that distort the economy so that "regular" players are unable to make a space living mining.



Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#209 - 2014-11-25 16:35:05 UTC
I agree with you wholeheartedly Zedutchman & Black Pedro as do a lot of the small miners I work for but it is very hard to combat them. I do my best to prevent them doing their dirty business. The OP here is about reducing the mining yield on Skiffs to bring the Skiff back in line with CCPs role based ship system. A additional benefit of this proposal is that it will lessen the damage of large 'afk' ISBoxer & bot mining fleets. I'm still waiting for a reply from a CCP dev on this issue.
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#210 - 2014-11-26 02:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ForTheEmpire2014
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
I agree with you wholeheartedly Zedutchman & Black Pedro as do a lot of the small miners I work for but it is very hard to combat them. I do my best to prevent them doing their dirty business. The OP here is about reducing the mining yield on Skiffs to bring the Skiff back in line with CCPs role based ship system. A additional benefit of this proposal is that it will lessen the damage of large 'afk' ISBoxer & bot mining fleets. I'm still waiting for a reply from a CCP dev on this issue.


With all due respect the OP is about nerfing the tank on Skiffs, and/or your options to deal with a large well managed NPC mining fleet:

"Are Skiffs overpowered insofar as given a certain scenario they are too difficult to move on or destroy"

Ima Wreckyou presented a reasonable counter to the fleet operation in post #10, whereby neutralizing the Orca by bumping alone disrupts the operation without having to resort to ganking or nerfing the Skiff. This was agreed to by the next series of posts, and It also remains unchallenged in this thread. Logically this leads to the conclusion that it is accepted as satisfying the OP.

Your OP has already been satisfied.

edit* Found your post in F&I
Also, news out about Multiboxing rules
Kon Kre8r
#211 - 2014-12-13 21:02:27 UTC
While I would enjoy using Skiff -- U think Any Non-Capital industrial is hard to hard to kill?
Take a moment to see what Any Marauder can do in terms of DPS --
Also you made no mention of them being supported by a Repping Fleet.

I hope you enjoy watching the Massive destructive capacity of say a Golem in action :)

Black Ops ships using Covert Jump Portals with Covert Cynos are NOT allowed to use Covert Cloaks. That makes sense.

Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#212 - 2014-12-14 17:36:49 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
The problem isn't the Skiff. The real problem is (still) the NPC corp issue.

Skiffs get 'sploded every day. One poor mechanic doesn't mean you nerf the other.
If that were fixed we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place, would we?


The ability for any capsuleer to stay in permamently or revert to membership of an NPC corporation should be disabled once a capsuleer is two months old. That's my two penneth on that chestnut. That change could be added to an improved NPE if we ever get one.

But the NPC corp issue compounds the situation but doesn't alter the fact that the Skiffs statistics need revising. The most recent rebalancing of the mining vessels was mainly done to stop the Mackinaw being 'go to' ship type for mining. The combined changes from that same rebalancing made the Skiff the 'best ship' although most miners haven't clicked that this is the case yet. One of CCPs core principles is that all ships have roles and there are no 'best ships' so the Skiff stats need to be changed.

Skiffs rarely get 'exploded' except if they are under wardec conditions. So many ships/pilots are required that it makes more sense, even not taking ISK into consideration, to attack a Freighter or Orca instead. I originally started this discussion on the basis of an EHP reduction but I now concur with others that a reduction in yield for the Skiff would lessen the damage it does to rocks. It would also remove it's current status as the 'best ship' for mining which would bring the Skiff back into the role based system.


The NPC corp issue should be solved through created better benefits for being in a corp. For most players, everything you get out of a corp could be gotten through a one man corp, mail list and private channel. I would like to see better benefits(simplest way would just be give very minor boosts to missioning, mining and ratting that have a monthly corp fee attached, so players are encouraged to group up and split the fee).


I have no problem with an 'encouragement' for people to join player run corps. But I fear that it would not work and so the stick may bring better results than the carrot.


I am(reluctantly) okay with people being able to earn isk in extremely safe environments so long as the isk is substantially worse than what risk takers can make.

If you want to mine in an alt corp with 100k ehp there should be serious yield trade offs over the guy with 20k ehp at risk of wardecs.
Swirlar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#213 - 2014-12-20 09:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Swirlar
What is needing a change is the Exhumer in general.

All Exhumers need to be upgraded so they can fit battleship sized modules. Large Shield Boosters, Large Extenders, etc. The ships were designed for 0.0 operation, have no weapons, and would be designed to tank a 0.0 battleship or two.

The current limited powergrid and cpu for fittings must be expanded to allow Large sized modules to be fitted.

Technology is supposed to advanced in a story line / time line, not go in reverse by nerfing technology.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#214 - 2014-12-20 10:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Swirlar wrote:
What is needing a change is the Exhumer in general.

All Exhumers need to be upgraded so they can fit battleship sized modules. Large Shield Boosters, Large Extenders, etc. The ships were designed for 0.0 operation, have no weapons, and would be designed to tank a 0.0 battleship or two.

The current limited powergrid and cpu for fittings must be expanded to allow Large sized modules to be fitted.

Technology is supposed to advanced in a story line / time line, not go in reverse by nerfing technology.
Why do you think they were designed for 0.0 operation? And drones count as a weapon. And I think they weren't intended to mine alone in nullsec.
From the "Mining barge (lore)" page from evelopedia, "For many years, miners relied on repurposed combat ships and a few specialized cruisers to harvest the vast asteroid belts of New Eden. These ships, while effective, suffered from numerous issues. Mining lasers required constant managing in order to maximize yield and small cargo holds meant only small hauls could be pulled in at one time. Mining frequently needed to be carried out in large teams; not only must there be miners and protective ships, but specialized haulers needed to carry the ore back to base."
So now they don't need specialized haulers, just protective ships.

Also, from a devblog a couple of years ago:
The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock.
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
Jaantrag
#215 - 2014-12-21 17:00:19 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
A

So in short I propose that the Skiff is currently overpowered and with the above scenario in place which is I daresay not uncommon. It's good for CCPs bank balance it is dare I say it 'game-breaking'. Ships have to be able to be destroyed in New Eden and this is disrupting the balance.



they are destroyable, just not as easly as one would destroy a covetor. why would the game make things easyer for the ganker, tho yea they are powerful for highsec .. but just enuf for low/null/wh-s ... i doupt peapole there go for maxed yield .. nerf the skiff and u get lot more cryes from thows peapole then right now some highsec gankers are putting out ..

not everything is easye as F1, f2 ... time for gankers to come up with new ideas to overcome the tanks ...

EVElopedia < add this to your sig to show u WANT it back

Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#216 - 2014-12-22 00:41:38 UTC
Jaantrag wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
A

So in short I propose that the Skiff is currently overpowered and with the above scenario in place which is I daresay not uncommon. It's good for CCPs bank balance it is dare I say it 'game-breaking'. Ships have to be able to be destroyed in New Eden and this is disrupting the balance.



they are destroyable, just not as easly as one would destroy a covetor. why would the game make things easyer for the ganker, tho yea they are powerful for highsec .. but just enuf for low/null/wh-s ... i doupt peapole there go for maxed yield .. nerf the skiff and u get lot more cryes from thows peapole then right now some highsec gankers are putting out ..

not everything is easye as F1, f2 ... time for gankers to come up with new ideas to overcome the tanks ...



There unfortunately isn't a better option. I would love to see more options for gankers, but Concord and faction police invalidate anything other than "dps very fast".

Btw, skiff had the same yield as a Mackinaw. The only advantage of the Mackinaw is it's better for afk mining in super safe environments(like 1.0 space).
Jaantrag
#217 - 2014-12-22 09:53:35 UTC
gankers, ganking .. usaly silent "suicide" is implyed .. in eve usaly that from the ground up means u go against concord. if u dont wanna lose your ship to blow up another ship u have to be more creative .. plenty of options out there to annoy the target .. and u surely cant have a risk-free way to blow up another player ship in high security systems.

and if one skiff really needs to go to bed, then surely there is enuf gankers to join the force and fight the evil skiff.


as for the yield.. not sure how much yield the difrence between the ships are right now. but i doupt for max tank skiff one would use in low-null-wh is the same as a mack.

EVElopedia < add this to your sig to show u WANT it back

Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#218 - 2014-12-22 10:29:16 UTC
Jaantrag wrote:
gankers, ganking .. usaly silent "suicide" is implyed .. in eve usaly that from the ground up means u go against concord. if u dont wanna lose your ship to blow up another ship u have to be more creative .. plenty of options out there to annoy the target .. and u surely cant have a risk-free way to blow up another player ship in high security systems.

and if one skiff really needs to go to bed, then surely there is enuf gankers to join the force and fight the evil skiff.


as for the yield.. not sure how much yield the difrence between the ships are right now. but i doupt for max tank skiff one would use in low-null-wh is the same as a mack.

Not exactly the same, since the Skiff would fit a damage control. But they have the same base yield and the same amount of low slots (thus the same amount of fittable MLUs).
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#219 - 2014-12-22 17:11:26 UTC
Buff skiffs.

They need a fighter bay, the abity to fire doomsday type weapons at rocks to instamine them, and a cargo hold three times larger than a freighter. Also buff ehp by 120k.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#220 - 2014-12-22 20:59:00 UTC
And then buff catalysts.
Give them blaster cannons (with 99% reduction in cpu/pg), and extra low slots for tracking mods. Add a bonus to scram range and a drone bay for sentries too. Hisec will never be the same againShocked