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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#481 - 2014-11-23 05:31:28 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
jump fatigue for the distance you were reset to your med clone. a time throttle, rather than an ISK throttle.

Wrong. The fatigue would be based on SP. The more you have the longer timer. Regardless if distance.

sometimes my jokes scare me

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#482 - 2014-11-23 12:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I understand the the clone value argument thing.

My stance in the death cost: it's not necessarily a bad idea, but the current system is too binary. Dying is not the issue, it's what you lost previous to the death that actually matters. And one could argue being sent back to home station is pretty risky, and that can be mitigated by not going far, or increased by going farther in search of potential content. Clones are not where the risk should be and especially shouldn't be related to SP at all.


Yeah, like I said Im less worried about clone costs specifically and more worried about the "spirit" of the change. I just dont want them going and making Eve too "soft."

Exactly, the previous system was terrible, the isk sink was virtually meaningless for a lot of the playerbase, and the rest it hit pretty hard. This current system of having no death penalty at all is even worse though.

I was thinking of a solution and came up with this idea.

Upon pod death, you lose 20% of SP from a skill (the skill could be chosen randomly, but more weight given to recently trained skills).

To mitigate this you would have 3 levels of clone, each reduce the penalty by 0.8.

Basic Clone = 20.00% SP loss
Lvl 1 clone = 16.00% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 1) Cost = 15 mil isk
Lvl 2 clone = 12.80% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 2) Cost = 75 mil isk
Lvl 3 clone = 10.24% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 3) Cost = 375 mil isk

In addition to this you can protect skill areas, the amount of areas you can protect would be corresponding to the level of the clone. So for instance, if I wanted to protect my spaceship command and gunnery skills, then I could install a level 2 clone, and be assured that no skill will be removed from either of those two areas.

To protect new players, skill points could be completely safe up to a set amount, 2 million SP for example.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#483 - 2014-11-23 14:04:42 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Rowells wrote:
I understand the the clone value argument thing.

My stance in the death cost: it's not necessarily a bad idea, but the current system is too binary. Dying is not the issue, it's what you lost previous to the death that actually matters. And one could argue being sent back to home station is pretty risky, and that can be mitigated by not going far, or increased by going farther in search of potential content. Clones are not where the risk should be and especially shouldn't be related to SP at all.


Yeah, like I said Im less worried about clone costs specifically and more worried about the "spirit" of the change. I just dont want them going and making Eve too "soft."

Exactly, the previous system was terrible, the isk sink was virtually meaningless for a lot of the playerbase, and the rest it hit pretty hard. This current system of having no death penalty at all is even worse though.

I was thinking of a solution and came up with this idea.

Upon pod death, you lose 20% of SP from a skill (the skill could be chosen randomly, but more weight given to recently trained skills).

To mitigate this you would have 3 levels of clone, each reduce the penalty by 0.8.

Basic Clone = 20.00% SP loss
Lvl 1 clone = 16.00% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 1) Cost = 15 mil isk
Lvl 2 clone = 12.80% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 2) Cost = 75 mil isk
Lvl 3 clone = 10.24% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 3) Cost = 375 mil isk

In addition to this you can protect skill areas, the amount of areas you can protect would be corresponding to the level of the clone. So for instance, if I wanted to protect my spaceship command and gunnery skills, then I could install a level 2 clone, and be assured that no skill will be removed from either of those two areas.

To protect new players, skill points could be completely safe up to a set amount, 2 million SP for example.


Thats a really good system, IMO, kudos for coming up with that! Plz go post it over in F&I !!




\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#484 - 2014-11-23 14:36:24 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Amarrian Cougar wrote:
This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.

1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone.
2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone.
3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships.
4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill"
5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub.



OFC people will be less inclined to GTFO because the change promotes riskless, meaningless pvp. Bet you like wow too.


Part of the fun in PVP is podding people because even if a Kill mail doesn't show the loss, you know you likely made them buy an expensive clone (and sometimes receive hate mails for it). It is also the act of getting your pod out of danger that is the "interesting content" that comes because you don't want to be podded. Yes.. there may be more PVP, but it will be more meaningless PVP.. and yes.. interesting content will be removed.
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#485 - 2014-11-23 15:39:28 UTC
Challus Mercer wrote:
I don't support the topic starter. Clones must go. They doesn't add any interesting gameplay. It's just a routine operation that you have to do each time after pod was killed. I would say 99% of players dont forget it and have never lost SP because of it. Clone costs have no sense as well, because they punish people with lot SP for dying, but to loose a ship is already a good punishment.

ditto

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#486 - 2014-11-23 15:45:11 UTC
I'm just waiting for the threads where people ask "Where do I upgrade my clone now?" when Rhea gets released.

-k8

My Fanclub
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2014-11-23 16:00:33 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
I'm just waiting for the threads where people ask "Where do I upgrade my clone now?" when Rhea gets released.

or the "Back in MY day, we had to pay ISK to allow our clones to hold all our SP. Uphill both ways in the snow!!!"

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Orwyyn Darsha
The Lone Wolf of EVE
#488 - 2014-11-23 18:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Orwyyn Darsha
OP is an asinine troll. Cannot believe this thread went to 25 pages.

Losing your ship and pod(implants) is enough.

CCP is making the right decision to remove medical clones, it adds ZERO to EVE Online, its just another stupid, frivolous time wasting step. God forbid you forget to update your clone, because you know sometimes poo happens. So in a moment of forgetfulness you may as a semi or older player lose a lot of skill time.

To the troll OP, explain to us, the devs and fans how this ADDS to EVE Onlines gaming experience in a meaningful way to justify the loss of said skill training?

Please try to make sense and not babble.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#489 - 2014-11-23 19:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Algathas wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Amarrian Cougar wrote:
This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.

1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone.
2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone.
3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships.
4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill"
5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub.



OFC people will be less inclined to GTFO because the change promotes riskless, meaningless pvp. Bet you like wow too.


Part of the fun in PVP is podding people because even if a Kill mail doesn't show the loss, you know you likely made them buy an expensive clone (and sometimes receive hate mails for it). It is also the act of getting your pod out of danger that is the "interesting content" that comes because you don't want to be podded. Yes.. there may be more PVP, but it will be more meaningless PVP.. and yes.. interesting content will be removed.


You just called RvB meaningless - they fly mostly up to cruisers, have no podding policy and are in constant wardec with each other. And yet, 7800+players find that fun at this very moment and thousands more through many years of RvB history. PvP in EvE is not meaningless and never will be... at least it won't be after clone costs are removed.
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#490 - 2014-11-23 19:15:29 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Algathas wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Amarrian Cougar wrote:
This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.

1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone.
2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone.
3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships.
4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill"
5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub.



OFC people will be less inclined to GTFO because the change promotes riskless, meaningless pvp. Bet you like wow too.


Part of the fun in PVP is podding people because even if a Kill mail doesn't show the loss, you know you likely made them buy an expensive clone (and sometimes receive hate mails for it). It is also the act of getting your pod out of danger that is the "interesting content" that comes because you don't want to be podded. Yes.. there may be more PVP, but it will be more meaningless PVP.. and yes.. interesting content will be removed.


You just called RvB meaningless - they fly mostly up to cruisers, have no podding policy and are in constant wardec with each other. And yet, 7800+players find that fun at this very moment and thousands more through many years of RvB history. PvP in EvE is not meaningless and never will be... at least it won't be after clone costs are removed.


Not sure where you got "RVB is meaningless" from what I said. Although I believe RVB is more of an artificial setting than regular lowsec or nullsec it's their choice to make their setting that way. Also I am sure there are plenty of people in RVB that wouldn't mind podding eachother if they did not have such a policy.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#491 - 2014-11-23 19:47:16 UTC
Algathas wrote:

Not sure where you got "RVB is meaningless" from what I said. Although I believe RVB is more of an artificial setting than regular lowsec or nullsec it's their choice to make their setting that way. Also I am sure there are plenty of people in RVB that wouldn't mind podding eachother if they did not have such a policy.


Well, I think that it's not artificial but rather player created rule that works around a meaningless mechanic. A rule made to squeeze as much fun per unit of ISK as possible... which is the whole point of clone cost removal anyway. Why pay for clones when you can buy more ships to have fun with instead?

I'll leave this thread because any further discussion is pretty much pointless. As for the conclusion:
- industrial players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvE players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- traders are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvP-ers will have more more ships / fun per unit of ISK / grinding session.

How can anyone spin this to be a bad thing is beyond me, since every argument against the change failed on many levels and was disputed during the course of this discussion. But then again, there are people in RL who would complain if the taxes get lower, so yeah... what do I know.
Ama Scelesta
#492 - 2014-11-23 20:30:22 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Algathas wrote:

Not sure where you got "RVB is meaningless" from what I said. Although I believe RVB is more of an artificial setting than regular lowsec or nullsec it's their choice to make their setting that way. Also I am sure there are plenty of people in RVB that wouldn't mind podding eachother if they did not have such a policy.


Well, I think that it's not artificial but rather player created rule that works around a meaningless mechanic. A rule made to squeeze as much fun per unit of ISK as possible... which is the whole point of clone cost removal anyway. Why pay for clones when you can buy more ships to have fun with instead?

I'll leave this thread because any further discussion is pretty much pointless. As for the conclusion:
- industrial players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvE players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- traders are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvP-ers will have more more ships / fun per unit of ISK / grinding session.

How can anyone spin this to be a bad thing is beyond me, since every argument against the change failed on many levels and was disputed during the course of this discussion. But then again, there are people in RL who would complain if the taxes get lower, so yeah... what do I know.

Taxes are a necessity and are collected for very specific purposes, that can benefit loads of individuals directly and all of them indirectly. They're also used to discourage unwanted behavior/encourage desirable behavior. Just saying there can be very good reasons to object to taxes being lowered. Med clone costs removal on the other hand not so much.
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#493 - 2014-11-23 20:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Algathas
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Algathas wrote:

Not sure where you got "RVB is meaningless" from what I said. Although I believe RVB is more of an artificial setting than regular lowsec or nullsec it's their choice to make their setting that way. Also I am sure there are plenty of people in RVB that wouldn't mind podding eachother if they did not have such a policy.


Well, I think that it's not artificial but rather player created rule that works around a meaningless mechanic. A rule made to squeeze as much fun per unit of ISK as possible... which is the whole point of clone cost removal anyway. Why pay for clones when you can buy more ships to have fun with instead?

I'll leave this thread because any further discussion is pretty much pointless. As for the conclusion:
- industrial players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvE players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- traders are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvP-ers will have more more ships / fun per unit of ISK / grinding session.

How can anyone spin this to be a bad thing is beyond me, since every argument against the change failed on many levels and was disputed during the course of this discussion. But then again, there are people in RL who would complain if the taxes get lower, so yeah... what do I know.


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#494 - 2014-11-23 23:53:24 UTC
This

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#495 - 2014-11-24 03:15:01 UTC
Algathas wrote:


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Hey Mr. Bittervet, since you are very disgruntled about this change and about to leave EvE, can i haz your stuffz? Lol

Just Add Water
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#496 - 2014-11-24 03:27:20 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Algathas wrote:


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Hey Mr. Bittervet, since you are very disgruntled about this change and about to leave EvE, can i haz your stuffz? Lol


That's gotta be the most original thing I've seen all day.... Roll


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#497 - 2014-11-24 03:27:59 UTC
Algathas wrote:

For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Content?


People having less ships to PVP with is content to you?


It's actually the opposite of content.

Call me Joe.
Orwyyn Darsha
The Lone Wolf of EVE
#498 - 2014-11-24 04:54:18 UTC
Algathas wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Algathas wrote:

Not sure where you got "RVB is meaningless" from what I said. Although I believe RVB is more of an artificial setting than regular lowsec or nullsec it's their choice to make their setting that way. Also I am sure there are plenty of people in RVB that wouldn't mind podding eachother if they did not have such a policy.


Well, I think that it's not artificial but rather player created rule that works around a meaningless mechanic. A rule made to squeeze as much fun per unit of ISK as possible... which is the whole point of clone cost removal anyway. Why pay for clones when you can buy more ships to have fun with instead?

I'll leave this thread because any further discussion is pretty much pointless. As for the conclusion:
- industrial players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvE players are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- traders are not affected. They don't lose pods anyway;
- PvP-ers will have more more ships / fun per unit of ISK / grinding session.

How can anyone spin this to be a bad thing is beyond me, since every argument against the change failed on many levels and was disputed during the course of this discussion. But then again, there are people in RL who would complain if the taxes get lower, so yeah... what do I know.


For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Lots of blabbering , 0 sense.


A pod and implant set being ransomed is a TOTALLY different issue from med clone costs. 99% of the time there is a medical clone set on the player, CCP is just trying to remove a pointless and time wasting step that adds nothing to EVE experience. You guys need to stay on topic goddammit.

Thank you, come back again.
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#499 - 2014-11-24 05:07:31 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Algathas wrote:

For some the mechanic is meaningless, for others it is content. If you find it meaningful to cause as much damage to your opponent as possible, per unit of time, then you would want to kill their pod knowing that their pod has value. For each pod you kill, you know that is 1 less ship they can buy to come back and attack you with. In addition, some people are able to ransom pods because they have value. By removing the ability to damage an enemy's wallet by pod killing, it makes PVP less damaging to the opponent, therefore less meaningful. just because YOU don't find something meaningful, doesn't mean it is not..



Content?


People having less ships to PVP with is content to you?


It's actually the opposite of content.



Yes, destroying my enemies is content, while having no reason to avoid death removes content.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#500 - 2014-11-24 10:28:13 UTC
Thx CCp for getting rid of the clones upgrades bullshit

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB