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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2181 - 2014-11-20 13:45:31 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Seems someone was too lenient and used to the easiness of former 0.0


Welcome back to a ruthless game.

Biggest LOL ever! ROFL! Ruthless my foot. You really want to talk about lenient and easy and ruthless?

Tell that to the hotdrops. Nothing ruthless about Eve for them. 20-100 vs a lone ratter is the very definition of easiness and risk-free.

Eve is still far too lenient and easy for the gankers. Nothing has changed about that with Phoebe. Nothing to see here. Move along.

And more Christmas gifts for the gankers are on the way!!! Ho ho ho! Merry Christmas! Stay tuned folks for the Eve classic hit, "Living in a Gankers Paradise," "What's POS Got to Do With It?", "BLOPS, the Magic Dragon," "I've been Working on My Jump Drive, All My Live Long Day" and many many more. That is, stayed tuned until your subs run out and you move along folks, nothing to see here.



I think you do not realize what side of the changes I am .... What i am calling easy are exactly fast travel and hotdrops.

And a lot have changed. Now when you are in space you are udner dange r from any capital ship within 10 Ly roughly. BEfore the changes you were under danger of anything within 70 LY!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2182 - 2014-11-20 13:46:42 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."



no.. I do not agree. It is the best way after the geenie is out of the bottle. Non artificially limiting solutions might have worked if CCP had moved like 6 years ago, before people got used the whole universe is my backyard.

Now is too late, and there is no other option but a brutal an crute chopping of things.

I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be thought of as "artificially limiting solutions" if things had been added in the state they currently are in back when EVE was first made, it would just be "the way things are".



But probably you could have handled it with 1/4th of current fatigue increase and the corrupt situation we faced would not have vdeveloped.

It is the same thing as with health... it is easier to prevent than to remedy.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2183 - 2014-11-20 15:03:53 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
So remind us then, how long they have to wait before getting out and how much ISK they have to risk on the field to get that bait ship? I'll give you a hint, one of the numbers is zero and the other one is near zero. Right, BLOPS can hotdrop at insane ranges AND have little to no fatigue penalty or need to care about the fatigue penalty. Lovely move there CCP. Niskin care to show us the numbers for BLOPs? and put them next to the cap numbers, maybe?


Challenge accepted... sorry I have been watching a lot of episodes of HIMYM lately. But for real, this isn't going to end up the way you think it is. I'll do this once with 5LY so it's a direct comparison and then again with 8LY so it's a max jump scenario.

Here is my post from page 108 modified for Black Ops:

Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 5LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump, regardless of hull bonuses)
Fatigue after first jump: 35 minutes

So you wait the 6 minutes, because you have to. Then we break into the two scenarios. Scenario A will be waiting until the optimum moment to jump to minimize fatigue. Scenario B will just jump when the cooldown timer ends.

Scenario A Jump 2: Knowing that the best time to jump is when you have 10 minutes of fatigue or less, you wait 25 minutes after the first jump. That's an additional 19 minutes of waiting past the cooldown for a clean jump.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 35 minutes
Time spent: 25 minutes

Scenario B Jump 2: Not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 29 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 101.5 minutes (1.7 hours)
Time spent: 6 minutes


Scenario A Jump 3: Once again you repeat the 25 minute wait, which is 19 minutes more than your jump cooldown.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 35 minutes
Time spent: 50 minutes

Scenario B Jump 3: Still not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 95 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 9.5 minutes (10 % of fatigue before jump, or 6, whichever is higher)
Fatigue: 332 minutes (5.5 hours)
Time spent: 12 minutes

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2184 - 2014-11-20 15:12:20 UTC
Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 8LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump, regardless of hull bonuses)
Fatigue after first jump: 50 minutes

So you wait the 6 minutes, because you have to. Then we break into the two scenarios. Scenario A will be waiting until the optimum moment to jump to minimize fatigue. Scenario B will just jump when the cooldown timer ends.

Scenario A Jump 2: Knowing that the best time to jump is when you have 10 minutes of fatigue or less, you wait 40 minutes after the first jump. That's an additional 34 minutes of waiting past the cooldown for a clean jump.

Distance Traveled: 16LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 50 minutes
Time spent: 40 minutes

Scenario B Jump 2: Not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 34 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 16LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 170 minutes (2.8 hours)
Time spent: 6 minutes


Scenario A Jump 3: Once again you repeat the 40 minute wait, which is 34 minutes more than your jump cooldown.

Distance Traveled: 24LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 50 minutes
Time spent: 80 minutes

Scenario B Jump 3: Still not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 164 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 24LY
Jump Cooldown: 16.4 minutes (10 % of fatigue before jump, or 6, whichever is higher)
Fatigue: 820 minutes (13.67 hours)
Time spent: 12 minutes

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2185 - 2014-11-20 21:17:41 UTC
You know, I made those posts hours ago and nobody has come along to call me stupid or tell me my math is wrong. I don't know why I even bother! Quit slacking trolls!

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2186 - 2014-11-20 21:20:31 UTC
ur a dumas g bak 2 wow
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2187 - 2014-11-20 21:28:02 UTC
That's better, thanks!

Also, WoW sucks, Hello Kitty Online is betta.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#2188 - 2014-11-21 18:11:57 UTC
Going with the logic that the jump changes were implemented because the end result of power projection allowed 'coalitions' to expand too large, I'm wondering where we'll see the next changes. I bet, before we see any more big sov changes, timers will be the next thing to get adjusted. It would not surprise me to see all sov timers be reduced to less than 24 hours (ie a just a few hours to go from shield reinforcement to armor, etc). No more day and a half between reinforcements. This might be a way of introducing 'occupational sov' without having to rewrite all the current mechanics, buying them time to do so as the landscape adapts.

A lot of people might freak at the idea of systems changing hands in just one day or less, but Phoebe is about local military power. If you live locally, you should be able to defend locally. If your primary military forces have to travel 35 jumps to respond to a timer...well...my guess is that is not the intended spirit of Phoebe. Might even inspire further nerfs.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2189 - 2014-11-21 18:26:06 UTC
I've been playing with the idea that a sov system could be done so you had a sort of border system so you could only take over a system on someone's border (kind of like in the good old days of sov4 invulnerability), but to compensate you could take more than a system pr day. This way we might've seen lots of smaller fights breaking out across multiple fronts/systems at the same time.

I'm curious as to how a proposed activity-based system would work, however, and I'm intersted in seeing how decoupling raw military power from holding space would actually play out.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2190 - 2014-11-21 22:07:38 UTC
Niskin wrote:
Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 8LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump, regardless of hull bonuses)
Fatigue after first jump: 50 minutes

Thank you. I guess BLOPs were not given as much of a nod as I remember. I seem to remember initial BLOPs buff plans of 80+% fatigue reduction bonuses and BLOPs jump ranges nearing 15 ly.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2191 - 2014-11-21 22:14:47 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Niskin wrote:
Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 8LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump, regardless of hull bonuses)
Fatigue after first jump: 50 minutes

Thank you. I guess BLOPs were not given as much of a nod as I remember. I seem to remember initial BLOPs buff plans of 80+% fatigue reduction bonuses and BLOPs jump ranges nearing 15 ly.

I told you it was 50% and 8LY a long time ago. Apparently you didn't listen.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2192 - 2014-11-22 16:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Lord TGR wrote:

I told you it was 50% and 8LY a long time ago. Apparently you didn't listen.

I suppose if you were a CCP authority, we might all take everything you say about EVE as fact. Currently, though, your name is not "CCP TGR", it is just "Lord TGR". I hope you get my point. It is a bit arrogant to think that others should merely accept what you say as fact as if you were the authority on every subject matter, unless there were some indisputable credentials and powers backing those words. Even still, 50% and 8 ly is significant and much better than any carrier; whereas carriers used to be much better than most ships, the movement roles have completely flipped.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2193 - 2014-11-22 16:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

I told you it was 50% and 8LY a long time ago. Apparently you didn't listen.

I suppose if you were a CCP authority, we might all take everything you say about EVE as fact. Currently, though, your name is not "CCP TGR", it is just "Lord TGR". I hope you get my point. It is a bit arrogant to think that others should merely accept what you say as fact as if you were the authority on every subject matter, unless there were some indisputable credentials and powers backing those words.

I quoted the devblog, you ignoramus.

Andy Landen wrote:
Even still, 50% and 8 ly is significant and much better than any carrier; whereas carriers used to be much better than most ships, the movement roles have completely flipped.

So CCP have changed it so ships with a lot of power can move around more slowly than smaller, nimbler ships.

Oh dear, so sad. So very, very sad.
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2194 - 2014-11-22 20:06:53 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • We're going to bump the max range of black ops ships up slightly to 8LY, and likewise give them a ~50% fatigue bonus.

    • Thanks,
    -Greyscale


    For those that missed the first post in this thread.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #2195 - 2014-11-23 03:18:56 UTC
    While I appreciate that Phoebe really shook things up in the Eve universe, I'd really like to install a fatigue timer on the elevators in CCP's offices. Oh, you want to go to the fifth floor? Well, either you can wait fifteen minutes between each floor, or else you won't be able to use the elevator for the next two weeks. You don't like that? Take the stairs. Which are guarded by dogs. Or bees. Or dogs with bees in their mouths that shoot bees at you when they bark.

    In other words, on the larger level, i classify Phoebe a success. On the individual level, it is a frustrating mechanic.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #2196 - 2014-11-23 14:37:07 UTC
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    While I appreciate that Phoebe really shook things up in the Eve universe, I'd really like to install a fatigue timer on the elevators in CCP's offices. Oh, you want to go to the fifth floor? Well, either you can wait fifteen minutes between each floor, or else you won't be able to use the elevator for the next two weeks. .

    I think the analogy is walking up the stairs instead of taking the elevator. And you're a really fat dude, just like caps and super caps are.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #2197 - 2014-11-23 21:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
    X Gallentius wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    While I appreciate that Phoebe really shook things up in the Eve universe, I'd really like to install a fatigue timer on the elevators in CCP's offices. Oh, you want to go to the fifth floor? Well, either you can wait fifteen minutes between each floor, or else you won't be able to use the elevator for the next two weeks. .

    I think the analogy is walking up the stairs instead of taking the elevator. And you're a really fat dude, just like caps and super caps are.

    Maybe we could get a live stream of greyscales new morning workout
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #2198 - 2014-11-23 23:54:20 UTC
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    While I appreciate that Phoebe really shook things up in the Eve universe, I'd really like to install a fatigue timer on the elevators in CCP's offices. Oh, you want to go to the fifth floor? Well, either you can wait fifteen minutes between each floor, or else you won't be able to use the elevator for the next two weeks. You don't like that? Take the stairs. Which are guarded by dogs. Or bees. Or dogs with bees in their mouths that shoot bees at you when they bark.

    In other words, on the larger level, i classify Phoebe a success. On the individual level, it is a frustrating mechanic.


    I like how you think they don't have teleporter to jump from floor to floor and only bother with elevator when they can't be bothered to pay the bear tears required for the jump.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #2199 - 2014-11-23 23:58:20 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    While I appreciate that Phoebe really shook things up in the Eve universe, I'd really like to install a fatigue timer on the elevators in CCP's offices. Oh, you want to go to the fifth floor? Well, either you can wait fifteen minutes between each floor, or else you won't be able to use the elevator for the next two weeks. You don't like that? Take the stairs. Which are guarded by dogs. Or bees. Or dogs with bees in their mouths that shoot bees at you when they bark.

    In other words, on the larger level, i classify Phoebe a success. On the individual level, it is a frustrating mechanic.


    I like how you think they don't have teleporter to jump from floor to floor and only bother with elevator when they can't be bothered to pay the bear tears required for the jump.

    Devhax
    Alice Saki
    Nocturnal Romance
    Cynosural Field Theory.
    #2200 - 2014-11-28 21:25:32 UTC
    Just back after a break from Eve... Update game lets go! or I guess not...

    Since I've been gone my Alliance has moved around a bit.

    Heres little old me sitting a Moros what used to be 2 cynos to get home

    Now it's 8 Cynos plus a timer... hmmm ok Lets do this.

    2 Days Later I'm 1 cyno away with almost a 30days fatigue timer and my next jump timer will be 2days xD Seems right...

    All this just to get home >.>

    FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.