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Primary weapons for all tier 3 ships
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Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-12-15 08:26:34 UTC
Ah well although I should know better by now.

whit out al the bogus arguments this thread would be so much shorter, al the other threads conserning this topic one way or the other as well.

The fact that it didn't work with (The half) Torps bonus in Sissi doesn't say there isn't a way to make it work.

The Naga sucked at Hybrids as well on Sissi before it was changed. (not telling it should be changed)

The Caldari missile/ Gellante Drone, comparisation when it comes to weapon systems is an other miss used argument, the Number of Gellante drone boats don´t come close to the number of Caldari Missile ships.

As a good poster on a simulair thread pointed out to me, the biggest difference is that Caldari are the most SP intensive race.

Because they have two weapon systems and one of them sucks at PVE and the other at PVP, not that the other is very good at it, If you looked at the numbers (Before crucible) least and second least weapon systems that made kills

And it would be nice of CCP to step away from that and give people the possibility of using both systems for both purposes instead of making the difference bigger.

Especialy since tutorial and Arch missions send you towards the PVE path first.

I understand it's a problem much more felt by newer players than the ones that are here for much longer. But I do think it's something CCP should look at at the least.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#42 - 2011-12-15 09:41:50 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Korg Tronix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sjugar wrote:
The drake is not ineffective at pvp, missiles are not ineffective at pvp.


The drake is not inneffective in pvp but only when in 1v1 or when in a drake/missile fleet.

Again though, drakes and missile fleets are only effective in pvp if they're fitted for tanking.

Get a drake that focuses on dps and it's screwed, put a fleet of missile boats against an equal fleet of turrets boat, each without tank capability, and the turrets will win every time simply because of the speed in which they can engage.

They can alpha down the missile boats with the highest dps before they're able to even hit a target.


Quoted this too say you have no idea what you are talking about.



Try taking on a turret boat 1v1 without having a good tank on the drake and see how you do. The only reason it survives pvp is because of it's tank. the only reason a missile gang can survive in pvp is by having a solid fleet tank build. If you dont' have a solid tank with missile fleets, you're boned. however, a turret fleet can fit more gank then gank and just come in and alpha down whatever will sit them best. Missiles can't do that because their tank will get waxed. They have to come in, establish the tank, then engage the enemy. Where as turrets can come in, take out some logistics through alpha, and then form their tank.
This isn't in all cases, it's only in a missile vs turrets matchup.


You have no idea what you are talking about.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2011-12-15 10:08:52 UTC
Ishtar Starfire wrote:
As a pure caldari pilot i feel that with the deployment of the new tier 3 battlecruisers you have given an unfair advantage to everyone except caldari pilots. an example would be like giving a fat kid a whole cake while the skinny kid has to watch and get nothing.


Wut?

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-12-15 18:25:24 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Quote:

Try taking on a turret boat 1v1 without having a good tank on the drake and see how you do. The only reason it survives pvp is because of it's tank. the only reason a missile gang can survive in pvp is by having a solid fleet tank build. If you dont' have a solid tank with missile fleets, you're boned. however, a turret fleet can fit more gank then gank and just come in and alpha down whatever will sit them best. Missiles can't do that because their tank will get waxed. They have to come in, establish the tank, then engage the enemy. Where as turrets can come in, take out some logistics through alpha, and then form their tank.
This isn't in all cases, it's only in a missile vs turrets matchup.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


You've said this twice, but you haven't at all come up with some reasoning as to why I have no idea what I'm talking about.
So until you can explain to us why you seem to think I have no idea what I'm talking about, your comment is worthless.

Ask just about everyone that pvp's, whether it be fleeted, wardecs, ganks, suicide ganks. Doesn't matter. The vast majority of players that pvp do so with turret boats. This is because the time it takes for missile to engage a target can easily be the deciding factor on whether you win or lose. Missile boats are also much less prefered in incursion fleets because of the amount of time that it takes for them to engage a target.

Everyone in Eve knows that missiles suffer greatly in engagement time and can actually get you killed. The only reason a drake works for pvp is because of it's tank. It is a passive tank, so cap is not an issue. However, with the tank fitted the drake has crap for dps. Even if you try to fit as much dps on the drake as you can, you still have crap dps, but then you also won't have really any tank. The drake can fit a massive tank. However, it can't fit massive dps. If you take a drake vs a hurricane, the hurricane need only a buffer tank to hold against the drake's low dps, but yet will still have high enough dps to eat away at the drakes tank while the drake suffers to scratch the hurricane. However, if you step into the realm of pve, the drake is the only one that is able to do most lvl 4 missions, but again, this is only because of it's tank. Tank is the only reason missile boats can stand a chance in pvp, and if they don't have tank, or have the exact tank as their target, their target will still win if even only by a small amount. THE ONLY WAY you can get a different outcome is by adding in ewar. The only way a missile boat can beat an equally matched turret boat is with stronger ewar and a smarter pilot. However, the pilot still makes no difference without the ewar.
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-12-15 18:46:35 UTC
So much ignorance.

Yes the drake has a bit better tank then a hurricane. Well, it actually has twice the tank the hurricane has and yes the hurricane does more dps.....until the range gets higher then 20km. The drake is able to project the full dps to 75 km T2 and 85km faction missiles.

Also, how many brutix, or Harbinger fleets do you see? The turrets you're talking about that are better then missiles are only autocannons in your book.

Fact is just, fleets these days are highly homogeneous and a lot of ships don't make the cut not only missile ships. The days of bring whatever battleship you can as long as it has a highslot with an armor repper are over.

And btw, if you ever see a tengu fleet, you better run.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-12-15 18:49:36 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
And btw, if you ever see a tengu fleet, you better run.


Yeah, but tengu's really are the bastard child of missiles. However, they're still much more prefered for pve than pvp.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#47 - 2011-12-15 19:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Mike Whiite wrote:

The Caldari missile/ Gellante Drone, comparisation when it comes to weapon systems is an other miss used argument, the Number of Gellante drone boats don´t come close to the number of Caldari Missile ships.



Frigates
Atron -- 2x turret hardpoints, 1 sm. drone (turret bonuses)
Imicus -- 2x turret hardpoints, 3x sm. drones (drone range, scanning bonuses)
Incursus -- 3x turret hardpoints, 1x sm. drone (turret bonuses)
Maulus -- 2x turret hardpoints, 2x sm. drones (turret, damp bonuses)
Navitas -- 2x turret hardpoints, 1x sm. drone (mining bonuses)
Tristan -- 2x turret, 2x launcher hardpoints, 1x sm. drone (turret bonuses)

Cruisers
Celestis -- 3x turret, 2x launcher hardpoints, 4x med. drones (turret bonuses)
Exequror -- 4x turret hardpoints, 4x med drones (cargo and logistics bonuses)
Thorax -- 5x turret hardpoints, 5x med drones (turret bonuses)
Vexor -- 4x turret hardpoints, 5x med drones (turret and drone bonuses)

Battlecruisers
Brutix -- 7x turret hardpoints, 5x med drones (turret bonuses)
Myrmidon -- 6x turret hardpoints, 3x large or 5x med drones (drone bonuses)
Talos -- 8x turret hardpoints, 5x sm. drones (turret bonuses)

Battleships
Donimix -- 6x turret hardpoints, 5x large drones (turret and drone bonuses)
Hyperion -- 8x turret hardpoints, 4x large or 5x med drones (turret bonuses)
Megathron -- 2x launcher, 7x turret hardpoints, 5x large drones (turret bonuses)


16 ships
10 with turret bonuses
2 with drone bonuses
2 with turret/drone
2 with neither

so, drones are significantly more the secondary weapon system for the Gallente (80/20 Hybrid/Drones)than Hybrids are for Caldari (55/45 Missile/Turret ... based on bonuses alone, somewhere from 70/30 to 50/50 if we're looking JUST at what things can fit). Difference is, Gallente pilots don't neglect their drones in favour of their hybrids...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#48 - 2011-12-15 19:59:51 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
(my post, and exactly re-hashing it without the bonuses)

Now, if you look at it this way, then you have 8 that are primarily missile boats, 5 that are primarily turret boats, and 3 that can go either way.
However, when you look at those 3 ships, they're ewar ships, so they're able to pick either turrets or missiles to fit into either fleet type.
One thing you also have to look at is the boats that are either limited to specifically missiles, or predominetely missiles are also quite inneffective in pvp, such as the caracal, drake, and raven.

Basically what I'm saying is it may be possible that the only reason there are turret boats in the caldari line up may simply be on part with what I said about missiles being inneffective in pvp.



so we're at 50/30 missile/turret, with a variance that can swing it to 70/30 or 50/50.

The Caracal, Drake, and Raven might not be the ideal combat ships, but they can still be used somewhat effectively (OK, mostly hisec wars and the like).

If we're going to start talking about completely ineffective combat ships ... how about the freighters? Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#49 - 2011-12-15 21:39:57 UTC
Really? You guys act like CCP pulled the plug on every missile boat in the game and said the Naga is now all you have. We still have are Ravens, Caracals, Drakes, Nighthawks, Scorpions, Hawks, Tengus, ect. You're just pissed because none of the teir 3's are missile platforms.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-12-15 21:49:51 UTC
I'm not a big fan of any of the tier 3's I think they're frigate gang bait, battleship weapons and no drones against a frigate or even a fast cruiser is a no win situation
Velicitia
XS Tech
#51 - 2011-12-15 21:55:59 UTC
Zyress wrote:
I'm not a big fan of any of the tier 3's I think they're frigate gang bait, battleship weapons and no drones against a frigate or even a fast cruiser is a no win situation



that's not what they're intended to shoot at ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-12-15 21:58:33 UTC
Zyress wrote:
I'm not a big fan of any of the tier 3's I think they're frigate gang bait, battleship weapons and no drones against a frigate or even a fast cruiser is a no win situation


You mean just like Zealots are useless because they have no anti-frigate defences? Roll
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-12-15 22:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
I'm just saying they are an easy target for a relatively inexpensive ship to take out. I'm not concerned with what they are designed to do, I'm thinking about what I would do to them. And I don't see a lot of Zealots about either.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#54 - 2011-12-15 22:16:55 UTC
they're designed to be fleet ships.

Yeah, you wouldn't want a fleet of just them ... but say 3 tier3 BC, a logi cruiser, ewar, 2-3 other BC, and a tackle frig or two, and you have one hell of a mobile fleet that can hit hard when necessary.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-12-16 02:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Really? You guys act like CCP pulled the plug on every missile boat in the game and said the Naga is now all you have. We still have are Ravens, Caracals, Drakes, Nighthawks, Scorpions, Hawks, Tengus, ect. You're just pissed because none of the teir 3's are missile platforms.


Missile boats are great....for pve. To me its not a matter of the naga not having missiles, its a matter of missiles being a lot less pvp friendly. Therefore the naga had to be a turret boat. I still say make missiles more pvp effective.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#56 - 2011-12-16 03:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Emperor Salazar
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Really? You guys act like CCP pulled the plug on every missile boat in the game and said the Naga is now all you have. We still have are Ravens, Caracals, Drakes, Nighthawks, Scorpions, Hawks, Tengus, ect. You're just pissed because none of the teir 3's are missile platforms.


Missile boats are great....for pve. To me its not a matter of the naga not having missiles, its a matter of missiles being a lot less pvp friendly. Therefore the naga had to be a turret boat. I still say make missiles more pvp effective.


Missiles are plenty pvp friendly, hence massive drake/tengu fleets.

The 8 torp naga was overpowered as hell.

Joe I just read some of your other posts in this thread. Stop posting. We know you don't pvp, and it shows in your posting. Tengus are amazing in pve and pvp. Missile spam is awesome.
Sassaniak
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#57 - 2011-12-16 03:54:07 UTC
Im curious as to the volley damage of a 8 torp naga, what was it?

...............................................................................

Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-12-16 03:55:30 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Really? You guys act like CCP pulled the plug on every missile boat in the game and said the Naga is now all you have. We still have are Ravens, Caracals, Drakes, Nighthawks, Scorpions, Hawks, Tengus, ect. You're just pissed because none of the teir 3's are missile platforms.


Missile boats are great....for pve. To me its not a matter of the naga not having missiles, its a matter of missiles being a lot less pvp friendly. Therefore the naga had to be a turret boat. I still say make missiles more pvp effective.


Missiles are plenty pvp friendly, hence massive drake/tengu fleets.

The 8 torp naga was overpowered as hell.

Joe I just read some of your other posts in this thread. Stop posting. We know you don't pvp, and it shows in your posting. Tengus are amazing in pve and pvp. Missile spam is awesome.


Tengus, drakes, and bombers are great at pvp, but there are other factors that determine this.
The tengu has multi functional use so It can be used for just about any situation, and also not forgetting that it has a massive tank and a small signature idiot with an awesome range.
The drake on the other hand has a decent range with some sloppy dps but a heavy tank and a high amount of mid slots for e-warfare.
Stealth bombers on the other hand are pretty much only use for their bombs. If the stealth bomber is able to continue dps after launching it's bomb it's considered more of a luxury than a necessity. No 1 ever expected to survive after a bomb launch.

Like I said these ships have other factors that determine whether they are affective in pvp or not however there missiles are not the factor that determine this. Put turrets onto these ships and they will be much more effective even having the same dose and range. This tells me nothing other than the fact that missile have a disadvantage. Even the fact that missiles have all 4 damage types is this much of a disadvantage as it is an advantage. You don't have to damage types wrapped up into 1 shot so you have to pick and choose which missile type to use. You can't just look at your target in determine which missile type to use because a lot of players will stack on their weakness and make it a strength
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2011-12-16 03:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Sassaniak wrote:
Im curious as to the volley damage of a 8 torp naga, what was it?


Slap 4 torpedo launchers on a golem with no modules and you should be pretty close. I personally don't remember what the bonus was for torps on the naga.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#60 - 2011-12-16 04:06:51 UTC
Have you ever actually pvpd? Because all of this pretty much sounds like ignorant theorycrafting.