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Precision vs. Javelin MIssiles

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Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#1 - 2014-11-20 19:35:52 UTC
I was going over EFT fits for fighting those pesky Sleeper Frigates. I've learned that doing sleeper sites it's all about the right tool for the right job. I use three different variants of the same missile with my Heavy Missile Launcher II, but I wanted to make sure that I was using the right missiles.

So, when fighting Frigates, is it better to use Javelins or Precisions?
When fighting Cruisers, is it better to use Fury, or Rage?
Same with battleships.

I was looking at the differences in Explosion Velocity, Damage Reduction Factor, and Explosion Velocity. The change in numbers were subtle, but I wanted to maximize efficiency.

The attraction to the HAMLs is the refire rate for ships that are typically in range to bring them down faster.
The attraction to the HML is for the range when the triggers are the frigates and not the battleships.

I do plan to carry a Mobile Depot on me with the variant fittings. I was hoping someone could give me a hand at exact number crunching.

My thought, is that the HAMLs are hands down the better choice, but I wanted to be sure.

Oh, and I think the Caldari Navy Scourge are the optimal weapon for anti-cruisers.

The ship I'm flying is a Tengu with an Accelerated Ejection Bay. Any insight on this would be much appreciated, thank you.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2 - 2014-11-20 19:40:35 UTC
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Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-11-20 19:43:08 UTC
Knowing what classes you fight in would be nice. Thanks.
Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#4 - 2014-11-20 19:45:14 UTC
C3 Wormhole, Affecting skill Caldari Offensive Subsystems IV, no noteable affects from wormhole anomalies
Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#5 - 2014-11-20 19:47:04 UTC
Currently:

I use the Precisions against the Frigates,
The Caldari Navy Heavy Scourge Missiles against Cruisers,
and Fury Scourge Heavy Missile.

Just wanting to see if any of the HAML versions would be better suited.
Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-11-20 19:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ormand Audel
Based on the numbers I have, T1 HAMs will apply the highest % of their damage. Of all heavy/heavy assault missiles, they have the highest explosion velocity and lowest explosion signature. Same stats as Javelin HAMs, but more raw damage (and lower missile velocity, but 6km/s is still enough). Lots of your damage is going to be negated against everything because unfit, all V, a T1 HAM has 160m/s explosion velocity and 93.75 explosion radius, but even the slowest c3/4 BS move at 800m/s+. Radius is fine for everything except the frigates though, you probably have a TP or 2, so you should focus largely on increasing explosion radius.

Faction HAMs also work, because same stats as T1 but higher raw damage.

Another way to view this: T1/Faction HAMs work best if you're in close range, Javelin if you need a bit more (~50%, 45k) range and I'm not sure what HMs.
Also, I hate this damn 5 minute posting cap.

Also, sleeper stats - http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=23&return_to=
Good luck hitting a couple of those battleships though. You'll need to travel over 20km for upholders and 10km for preservers assuming you're using Javelins (assuming they're at their orbit range). +15k to that if you're using t1/faction.
Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#7 - 2014-11-20 20:07:39 UTC
Ormand Audel wrote:
Based on the numbers I have, T1 HAMs will apply the highest % of their damage. Of all heavy/heavy assault missiles, they have the highest explosion velocity and lowest explosion signature. Same stats as Javelin HAMs, but more raw damage (and lower missile velocity, but 6km/s is still enough). Lots of your damage is going to be negated against everything because unfit, all V, a T1 HAM has 160m/s explosion velocity and 93.75 explosion radius, but even the slowest c3/4 BS move at 800m/s+. Radius is fine for everything except the frigates though, you probably have a TP or 2, so you should focus largely on increasing explosion radius.

Faction HAMs also work, because same stats as T1 but higher raw damage.

Another way to view this: T1/Faction HAMs work best if you're in close range, Javelin if you need a bit more (~50%, 45k) range and I'm not sure what HMs.
Also, I hate this damn 5 minute posting cap.

Also, sleeper stats - http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=23&return_to=
Good luck hitting a couple of those battleships though. You'll need to travel over 20km for upholders and 10km for preservers assuming you're using Javelins (assuming they're at their orbit range). +15k to that if you're using t1/faction.

Essentially, HAMs work better if the situation allows, and if possible, go for Factional HAMs, not the t2 Variants? The higher explosion raidus, the better obviously.

Thank you very much for helping me btw, it is much appreciated.
Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-11-20 20:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ormand Audel
Jaquline wrote:
Ormand Audel wrote:
Based on the numbers I have, T1 HAMs will apply the highest % of their damage. Of all heavy/heavy assault missiles, they have the highest explosion velocity and lowest explosion signature. Same stats as Javelin HAMs, but more raw damage (and lower missile velocity, but 6km/s is still enough). Lots of your damage is going to be negated against everything because unfit, all V, a T1 HAM has 160m/s explosion velocity and 93.75 explosion radius, but even the slowest c3/4 BS move at 800m/s+. Radius is fine for everything except the frigates though, you probably have a TP or 2, so you should focus largely on increasing explosion radius.

Faction HAMs also work, because same stats as T1 but higher raw damage.

Another way to view this: T1/Faction HAMs work best if you're in close range, Javelin if you need a bit more (~50%, 45k) range and I'm not sure what HMs.
Also, I hate this damn 5 minute posting cap.

Also, sleeper stats - http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=23&return_to=
Good luck hitting a couple of those battleships though. You'll need to travel over 20km for upholders and 10km for preservers assuming you're using Javelins (assuming they're at their orbit range). +15k to that if you're using t1/faction.

Essentially, HAMs work better if the situation allows, and if possible, go for Factional HAMs, not the t2 Variants? The higher explosion raidus, the better obviously.

Thank you very much for helping me btw, it is much appreciated.
That was a typo. Lower Explosion Radius = better. If it's below target sig radius, there is no damage reduction from that. However, in the case of sleepers, they move really fast. So while your explosion radius may be fine, the explosion velocity is lower than the velocity of the ships, so there's a damage reduction on that (and that's why you should focus on that for applied damage in this case)
Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#9 - 2014-11-20 20:16:25 UTC
Ah with my skills, all missiles with HAML travel over 28km. So I think I should be good there. And I am speed tank fit as well.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#10 - 2014-11-20 20:29:20 UTC
The smaller the explosion radius, and the faster the explosion velocity, the better your chance to hit small and fast targets.

Eve Uni to the rescue: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#11 - 2014-11-20 20:53:36 UTC
This thread has been moved to Ships & Modules.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#12 - 2014-11-20 21:47:32 UTC
Spend more time in EFT.
EFT has lots of secondary tool functions beyond just raw numbers for ship building.

You can put in what size target and graph the applied DPS you put out on all your fitting varrients.

No one in the forums will be able to give you as accurate of a picture of your characters ability as you.
Put in your API and see the custom graphs for yourself.
Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-11-20 21:50:13 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Spend more time in EFT.
EFT has lots of secondary tool functions beyond just raw numbers for ship building.

You can put in what size target and graph the applied DPS you put out on all your fitting varrients.

No one in the forums will be able to give you as accurate of a picture of your characters ability as you.
Put in your API and see the custom graphs for yourself.
Well, not really. There are things that have higher base stats. And you can't compare your fit vs npcs.
Jaquline
Space Marine Syndicate
#14 - 2014-11-21 05:22:30 UTC
I'm not sure how to get information in regards to plugging in NPCs such as sleepers. I've tried using the graphs, but couldn't make sense of the tools to make it work. Couldn't really find a tutorial either...
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-11-21 09:45:08 UTC
In PYFA it's a bit easier imo.
Start by fitting the ship and while having the fit active let PYFA create a Graph.
Now you can enter the target signature, velocity and angle at which it is flying relative to you. Since you don't need to bother with tracking, all you really need to enter is the base signature and velocity of the appropriate ship.

To compare performance of a handful of fits you can easily copy the fit and refit that one module which is mainly useful for damage mod/application mod and weapon system changes as projecting web/tp would have to be done manually via changing velocity/signature as far as I can tell.


"Easy" Workaround: Install a graphics tool of choice (paint.net / GIMP) screenshot the graphs (make sure they all show the same section of the axis and have the same overall size so you don't have to resize later) and paste each one to a new layer. Take the magic selection with low tolerance click the white and hit "Del" (alternatively use lower layer transparency between 150 and 200, harder to read the more layers you add though). MAGIC. Problem would be that the graphs are now all mono colour (blue is the primary choice I believe). Use pot tool and colours of choice to change ita round.

P.S.: Typed out that sure seems like a lot of work to determine best performance... spreadsheets-in-space...
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-11-21 16:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Jaquline wrote:
I'm not sure how to get information in regards to plugging in NPCs such as sleepers. I've tried using the graphs, but couldn't make sense of the tools to make it work. Couldn't really find a tutorial either...


For Sleeper stats use this:

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=23&return_to=

It can be hard to use EFT to mimic NPC ships, however it is possible.

I use:
- Apocalypse Imperial Issue to mimic a Sleeper battleship. 400m signature
- Stratios to mimic a Sleeper cruiser. 150m signature
- Atron to mimic a Sleeper frigate. 35m signature

So to see if you can hit a sleeper frigate, open up you preferred ship in one window, and open an Atron in another window within EFT. Now go File -> New DPS Graph.

Right click in the top right hand white area of the Damage Per Second window that pop-ups up, Add Attacker -> your ship
Right click in the top right hand white area of the Damage Per Second window that pop-ups up, Add Target-> the atron

You will see a Damage Graph, range is along the bottom, DPS is the other axis, so the higher the line the more damage. This graph is for when both ships are flying directly towards each other.

Now of you drag the right hand arrow within the circle around you can see how you applied damage will vary depending on the direction and speec of the sleeper frigate. Add an afterburner to the Atron, and you see your applied missile damage go down on the graph, etc

Using this I figured out that hitting sleeper frigates with an Apocalypse is hard, even with the tracking bonus. But If use a mobile depot to switch my mids for three webs and one target painter they are easy to kill very quickly.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#17 - 2014-11-23 11:49:12 UTC
Ormand Audel wrote:
Well, not really. There are things that have higher base stats. And you can't compare your fit vs npcs.

I can't remember what the old, broken, really bad at cap calculations fitting tool was called... but I miss its Combat Log Analyser.
Takeshi Kumamato
Blaze Orange Expeditions
#18 - 2014-11-23 22:54:38 UTC
Javelins only provide extra range, not damage or damage application so it's always better to use precision against the frigates.
Against cruisers, you're better off using faction ammo unless you have rigor rigs, flare rigs, or painters because the cruisers have a small enough sig radius and high enough velocity that they will mitigate a significant portion of rage and fury damage output.