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ESS in Anomalies
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Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
#41 - 2014-11-19 21:11:12 UTC
Newly updated:

Ok, so after many of you talked about "fleets" killing anomalies
i made the following experiment:

- ESS in fully spawned Sansha Hidden rally point

- Decent Skills tengu:
80% em resistance
90% thermal resistance
966 shield hp every 5 sec
Cap stable
Eft says 1318 def (if i have set up eft properly).

Result, in 15 seconds after i was targeted by rats, my shield was already going down too fast.

More to follow
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
#42 - 2014-11-19 21:31:42 UTC
viverxia wrote:
Your problem is that if you disallow the way they are used now (which is pretty much the only way.. every alliance that doesn't pretty much just blanket bans their use) would mean they would never be used.

Introducing another very redundant object to the crowded shelf of **** we never use (to the left of the pile of defender missiles)
If you buff the turnover too much there would be nothing to steal, If its not buffed enough it gets shelved.
If you increase the time to access it then pirates complain.

Without trying to sound like a broken record. Working as intended.
These devices sit in a already precarious state of use and you changes would tip them into room 101.


So it is better if nullsec alliances use the ESS as a "i-have-to-do-nearly-nothing" passive-boost to their income, than it being fixed because they might not use them at all?
Iain Cariaba
#43 - 2014-11-19 21:37:50 UTC
Oh Gods, are you still whining about this? Didn't the month of no one caring about this before you broke forum rules by bumping it clue you in?

Zao Elongur wrote:
Ok, so after many of you talked about "fleets" killing anomalies
i made the following experiment:

I highlighted the part you seemingly missed. A fleet is not you alone in a tengu.

Stop being bad at EvE, or at least stop shiptoasting on forums about it.
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
#44 - 2014-11-20 09:47:50 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Oh Gods, are you still whining about this? Didn't the month of no one caring about this before you broke forum rules by bumping it clue you in?


I expect a proper reply from a ccp member of staff on the issue which is clearly an exploit of game mechanisms and defeats the purpose of the structure.

Also for your information, even if everyone would argue against me, that still wouldn't make me wrong.

Iain Cariaba wrote:

I highlighted the part you seemingly missed. A fleet is not you alone in a tengu.

Stop being bad at EvE, or at least stop shiptoasting on forums about it.


A decent fleet, a carrier, battleships, and even smaller ships with expensive fits could all survive/do those anomalies.
There is no doubt about that sherlock.
But have you ever seen a "pirate carrier", or an ess stealing battleship or generally pirate fleets to steal from ess? lol

The issue is not feasibility, the issue is practicality!

Actual problems:
- Fleets for ESS require willing Fleet members
- Fleets equals division of money
- Profit from stealing from ESS is uncertain
- Survival of fleet deep in hostile space is uncertain
- More expensive ships mean greater risk taken
- More ships suggest greater chance for a defencive hunt party
- Bigger ships travel very slowly, 30-60 jumps is a huge time sink

There are ways "around" Esses in anomalies,
but the fact that they are ways "around" IS part of the problem and not the solution.

My tengu experiments just proves that actually solo tanking the anomaly is very hard if not impossible.
So far, the only way to steal SOLO from an ESS in an anomaly is by abandoning your ship in space and all it implies about the risk , the gameplay, and the actual fun of the activity.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2014-11-20 10:40:49 UTC
Zao Elongur wrote:
The issue:

AttentionPeople keep anchoring ESS inside anomalies, and exploit the game mechanisms to provide their ess with "defending rats", and hard to navigate structures.

It is very easy for the defender to just warp to the ESS with an implantless pod, but it is very hard for the lucrative pirate to steal from them.
Small ships cannot tank the rats, bigger ships are too slow to travel the 30-60 jump distances.
finally, fighting players AND rats at the same time is not really pvp either.

Suggestions:
Arrow Prevent anchoring of ESS in anomalies
Arrow increase ESS pay out to compensate for the increased risk



or kinda deal with it haters ^^ it's super easy to stel from npc guarded ess, ab interceptor can tank it, if you have biger gang, one interceptor jump from ship and go to take all and other pilot warp to the canp and pick it up.

or just ahev a gang with two logis to tank it ... it's not like you can counter it.

it's easy ...
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2014-11-20 10:44:01 UTC


Iain Cariaba wrote:


Actual problems:
- Fleets for ESS require willing Fleet members
- Fleets equals division of money
- Profit from stealing from ESS is uncertain
- Survival of fleet deep in hostile space is uncertain
- More expensive ships mean greater risk taken
- More ships suggest greater chance for a defencive hunt party
- Bigger ships travel very slowly, 30-60 jumps is a huge time sink



i think the problem is you guy's wona have it easy ... and are not willing to play the game : )


stealing from ess is not a game profesion Blink it's a thing to do while roaming.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-11-20 13:36:01 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Or just change it so that NPCs shoot player anchored items. Solves gate bubbles and ESS problems at the same time.


Bubbles yes but not everything, this would basically kill half the functionality of MTUs.

But I dunno OP, just seems like a clever use of gameplay functionality to me.
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
#48 - 2014-11-20 21:39:20 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:

i think the problem is you guy's wona have it easy ... and are not willing to play the game : )

stealing from ess is not a game profesion Blink it's a thing to do while roaming.


Practically being a market alt that never left jita, or scamming people, or suicide ganking to get items from poor victims aren't game proffesions either :P

but anyway, the point isn't about money, it is about the gameplay.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#49 - 2014-11-20 22:38:55 UTC
Emergent gameplay. I was in a roaming gang that got into a nice full ESS in an anomaly earlier this week. We got a few hundred million and killed the ESS and the rats, then got a very fun fight out of it.

Apparently you don't want a sandbox.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Iain Cariaba
#50 - 2014-11-20 23:38:01 UTC
Zao Elongur wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Oh Gods, are you still whining about this? Didn't the month of no one caring about this before you broke forum rules by bumping it clue you in?


I expect a proper reply from a ccp member of staff on the issue which is clearly an exploit of game mechanisms and defeats the purpose of the structure.

Also for your information, even if everyone would argue against me, that still wouldn't make me wrong.

If you expect a reply from devs, you're going to be waiting a looooooooooong time. The percentage of threads that devs respond to is extremely low, though I am told the do read the threads posted here.

Secondly, your inability to deal with the placement of the ESS does not make it an exploit. The ratters put the ESS where in those anoms specifically to keep people like you from reaching it. The simple fact that those who know how are barely slowed down by those same anoms when looting the ESS simply reinforces the fact that it is not an exploit.

Zao Elongur wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

I highlighted the part you seemingly missed. A fleet is not you alone in a tengu.

Stop being bad at EvE, or at least stop shiptoasting on forums about it.


A decent fleet, a carrier, battleships, and even smaller ships with expensive fits could all survive/do those anomalies.
There is no doubt about that sherlock.
But have you ever seen a "pirate carrier", or an ess stealing battleship or generally pirate fleets to steal from ess? lol

The issue is not feasibility, the issue is practicality!

Actual problems:
- Fleets for ESS require willing Fleet members
- Fleets equals division of money
- Profit from stealing from ESS is uncertain
- Survival of fleet deep in hostile space is uncertain
- More expensive ships mean greater risk taken
- More ships suggest greater chance for a defencive hunt party
- Bigger ships travel very slowly, 30-60 jumps is a huge time sink

There are ways "around" Esses in anomalies,
but the fact that they are ways "around" IS part of the problem and not the solution.

My tengu experiments just proves that actually solo tanking the anomaly is very hard if not impossible.
So far, the only way to steal SOLO from an ESS in an anomaly is by abandoning your ship in space and all it implies about the risk , the gameplay, and the actual fun of the activity.

If you really think a decent fleet requires capitals and battleships, you really don't have a grasp on the mechanics of this game. Furthermore, if you think that those ships are required to tank full spawned anoms... well, I can't think of a way to say what level of bad that is without ISD editing this post to redact it. The issue is neither feasibility nor practicality, the issue is your inability. I can think of a couple ships right off hand that can handle full spawn anoms, and none of them are larger than a cruiser. The ship options to deal with full spawn anoms increases as you add even one or two people to the fleet. If you lack the knowledge of the game to figure this out on your own, ask corpmates and alliance mates for help, or stop trying to hunt ESSes.

Now, let's tackle what you say are problems.
  • The reasons people are generally unwilling to form ESS hunting fleets are because EASes are rare. They are rare because of how easy it is for them to be looted and destroyed. I do believe this is intentional by CCP.
  • This is correct, but than again, you are playing a multiplayer game, so this is to be expected. If you want to solo these, get better at EvE.
  • If you want steady, predictable income, switch to ratting rather than trying to farm ratters.
  • The last four "problems" you posted have nothing at all to do with ESSes. Those are considered facts of life for living in null. If they are that big of a deal for you, perhaps you're living in the wrong part of EvE.

    • The fact that there are ways around the anomalies to get the ESSes is another reason that placing them there is not an exploit.

    Your experiment with the tengu just shows you still don't know what you're doing there. Yes, tanking the full spawn is hard, it's supposed to be, but it's not impossible. All it requires is for you to ask questions, listen to the answers, and HTFU.
    Zao Elongur
    Porphyr Empire
    #51 - 2014-11-22 14:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zao Elongur
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    If you expect a reply from devs, you're going to be waiting a looooooooooong time. The percentage of threads that devs respond to is extremely low, though I am told the do read the threads posted here.


    I am currently collecting data about ESSes in ALL of nullse and when my real life allows me enought time to complete this, i will post them here, perhaps with nice little graphs and maps (but not too precise ofc ;) )
    We are all short of time :)

    Iain Cariaba wrote:

    If you really think a decent fleet requires capitals and battleships, you really don't have a grasp on the mechanics of this game. Furthermore, if you think that those ships are required to tank full spawned anoms... well, I can't think of a way to say what level of bad that is without ISD editing this post to redact it. The issue is neither feasibility nor practicality, the issue is your inability. I can think of a couple ships right off hand that can handle full spawn anoms, and none of them are larger than a cruiser. The ship options to deal with full spawn anoms increases as you add even one or two people to the fleet. If you lack the knowledge of the game to figure this out on your own, ask corpmates and alliance mates for help, or stop trying to hunt ESSes.


    I will clarrify what you didnt undestand:

    - The major problem with using bigger ships is that they are slow, (aling+warp out+au/s). The problem with being slow is that it takes a very long time to travel, especially if you live in nullsec and have to travel double the jumps of what a guy based in high sec would have to travel.

    - The other problem with using non-t3 ships is that they are not interdiction nullified and cloaked, which means they might get caught in nullsec entrances and proper gate camps, and if they get hunted down they will not be able to pick their fights which implies a far greater chance of being destroyed.

    - The problem with creating fleets to steal ESS is that most people will do exactly what you write below, they will not bother with going after an ESS because they will prefer to do some activity that will pay out more, wont have a time commitment, wont have a boring part of traveling, wont have increased risk, and wont take them away from base of operations if they are in a null sec alliance.
    In the case of high sec players, you probably have also their fear of the "unknown and dangerous" Nullsec, stronger carebear tendencies or even general inexperience.
    Also the number of people in fleet is the number you are going to divide the pay out with, a pay out which will still be limited by things beyond your control like intel (see "Pirate stole ESS in system X, quickly share your ESS!")
    All these means that your potential fleet members, might try it once or twice, but very, very few will find "pretending to be an internet pirate is fun" an actual incentive to do it often instead of other activities.
    And lets say that you do find people, how often do you think that will happen, and how often these people will have time and mood for it?

    as i said before, the issue is not feasability, but practicality.

    a bigger discussion could be about ESSes in general, but it is better to look after what is pretty much obvious than start theorising about stuff.

    Iain Cariaba wrote:

    Now, let's tackle what you say are problems.
  • The reasons people are generally unwilling to form ESS hunting fleets are because EASes are rare. They are rare because of how easy it is for them to be looted and destroyed. I do believe this is intentional by CCP.
  • This is correct, but than again, you are playing a multiplayer game, so this is to be expected. If you want to solo these, get better at EvE.
  • If you want steady, predictable income, switch to ratting rather than trying to farm ratters.
  • The last four "problems" you posted have nothing at all to do with ESSes. Those are considered facts of life for living in null. If they are that big of a deal for you, perhaps you're living in the wrong part of EvE.

    • Your experiment with the tengu just shows you still don't know what you're doing there. Yes, tanking the full spawn is hard, it's supposed to be, but it's not impossible. All it requires is for you to ask questions, listen to the answers, and HTFU.


    ESSes are relatively rare, but that is not because they get looted and destroyed, it is because people dont want to bother defending them and dont see much value in having them.

    People are unwilling to form ESS fleets for the reasons i wrote above, and not because ESSes are rare.

    If you need to find an ESS each time you decide to go and steal from one, then i would assume you haven't done this enought.
    There are systems so deep inside coallitions A+B space that haven't seen real combat for ages and have ESSes that have been anchored there for months, and i do maintain a list of bookmarks that currently should have around 35 ESS in an area that corresponds to only a fraction of nullsec.

    Yes it is a multiplayer game that also has single player activities, but due to design you are forced to do it with small numbers and it is much more probable that you will end up trying/doing this solo.

    I do not steal purely for income, ESS is not my primary money-making activity (why you people assume that? ... ) i steal because i find it fun and it enriches my game experience.

    o7
    Iain Cariaba
    #52 - 2014-11-22 17:27:14 UTC
    Zao Elongur wrote:
    I will clarrify what you didnt undestand:

    - The major problem with using bigger ships is that they are slow, (aling+warp out+au/s). The problem with being slow is that it takes a very long time to travel, especially if you live in nullsec and have to travel double the jumps of what a guy based in high sec would have to travel.

    - The other problem with using non-t3 ships is that they are not interdiction nullified and cloaked, which means they might get caught in nullsec entrances and proper gate camps, and if they get hunted down they will not be able to pick their fights which implies a far greater chance of being destroyed.

    - The problem with creating fleets to steal ESS is that most people will do exactly what you write below, they will not bother with going after an ESS because they will prefer to do some activity that will pay out more, wont have a time commitment, wont have a boring part of traveling, wont have increased risk, and wont take them away from base of operations if they are in a null sec alliance.
    In the case of high sec players, you probably have also their fear of the "unknown and dangerous" Nullsec, stronger carebear tendencies or even general inexperience.
    Also the number of people in fleet is the number you are going to divide the pay out with, a pay out which will still be limited by things beyond your control like intel (see "Pirate stole ESS in system X, quickly share your ESS!")
    All these means that your potential fleet members, might try it once or twice, but very, very few will find "pretending to be an internet pirate is fun" an actual incentive to do it often instead of other activities.
    And lets say that you do find people, how often do you think that will happen, and how often these people will have time and mood for it?

    as i said before, the issue is not feasability, but practicality.

    a bigger discussion could be about ESSes in general, but it is better to look after what is pretty much obvious than start theorising about stuff.

    Yet I did not misunderstand anything. What you're failing to grasp here is that your narrow vision of the way to loot an ESS is flawed at a fundamental level, which is why it does not succeed. You're either unwilling or unable to admit that you're not doing it right, and therefore want CCP to fix it for you rather than figure out the right way to do it.

    One of the guys in an old Corp of mine used to keep an ESS at the end of a static complex that was far, far more difficult than any full spawn anom. He kept it there until it got looted and destroyed by two people in cruisers. Therefore I say your insistence on the presence of battleships is utter rubbish. Furthermore, if you knew the mechanics involved behind how things like gun tracking works, you would understand that taking a battleship into a full spawn anom full of frigates and cruisers is simply asking to have them destroy that battleship. Your entire argument seems based on a lack of understanding into how this game works, and since you don't understand it, you want it changed into something else.

    As to your issues with forming an ESS fleet, get used to them. Hunting ESSes is essentially PvE under a thin veneer of PvP, and most players I've run across seem to understand this. If you're moderately intelligent, and understand the use of a scout, travelling in nullsec is safe, even for neuts. Gate camps are simply a fact of life in null, and you can either try to go around them, or you can try to bust them up. If your highsec friends are too scared or too risk averse to traverse the badlands of nullsec, perhaps you need a better quality of friend. Perhaps yourself needs to leave highsec for a while and learn the game. Maybe then you'll understand that the problem lies with you, not the ESS.

    Zao Elongur wrote:
    ESSes are relatively rare, but that is not because they get looted and destroyed, it is because people dont want to bother defending them and dont see much value in having them.

    People are unwilling to form ESS fleets for the reasons i wrote above, and not because ESSes are rare.

    If you need to find an ESS each time you decide to go and steal from one, then i would assume you haven't done this enought.
    There are systems so deep inside coallitions A+B space that haven't seen real combat for ages and have ESSes that have been anchored there for months, and i do maintain a list of bookmarks that currently should have around 35 ESS in an area that corresponds to only a fraction of nullsec.

    Yes it is a multiplayer game that also has single player activities, but due to design you are forced to do it with small numbers and it is much more probable that you will end up trying/doing this solo.

    I do not steal purely for income, ESS is not my primary money-making activity (why you people assume that? ... ) i steal because i find it fun and it enriches my game experience.

    o7

    1: People don't see value in having ESSes because of how easy it is to loot and destroy them, yet here you are trying to make it easier to get at them because you claim it is too hard. Guess what, EvE is hard.

    2: No, your friends don't want to form ESS fleets because they are apparently risk averse highsec carebears too scared to come into null. You pretty much admit this in your above example on why people don't do this.

    3: Good for you. Now you just need to learn the proper way to get at them and you're set.

    4: Again, it can be done solo, it's just easier with a group. Stop doing it wrong and it'll work.

    5: I don't assume that ESS is your primary income, simply based on you being bad at it.
    Arronicus
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #53 - 2014-11-22 18:16:06 UTC
    Considering how easy it is for a solo interceptor to steal from an ESS in a fully escalated Forlorn Hub, I'm glad to know that there are some players out there who my bounties are absolutely completely safe from, due to 'game breaking exploits' and all.
    Nergal Hurrian
    Orange Lazarus Petroleum Inc.
    #54 - 2014-11-22 19:59:12 UTC
    Plukovnik wrote:


    However I suggest a change: Mobile Tractor Unit should not be anchorable less than 200 km from ESS. Or MTU should be shot by NPCs - it would also help making Noctis relevant ship again.

    And I agree with the idea of anchorable bubbles being shot by NPCs.


    No.

    You already are enjoying the fruits of a broken ship; specifically, Malediction. Judging by your killboard, it looks like you are extremely risk averse and almost exclusively fly insta-warp Maledictions, which are, to the best of my knowledge, nigh-impossible to catch in any type of space. You also appear to be multiboxing those ships.

    You are suggesting this MTU change to make it easier for you to steal from any ESS. If anything, as long as insta-warp/no risk/perfect safety in any space interceptors which can deal damage continue to exist, it should be harder to steal from ESS, not easier. (I'm guessing even with ESS without rats around it, you are using empty pod alts to steal, and an insta-align interceptor to grab the spoils, thus risking absolutely nothing in exchange for a reward that is not offered anywhere else in the game at this risk:reward ratio)

    Tell us why any risk-averse instawarp interceptor pilot should be given opportunities to obtain great rewards at all?
    Ted McManfist
    Thunderwaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #55 - 2014-11-22 20:24:57 UTC
    Nergal Hurrian wrote:
    Plukovnik wrote:


    However I suggest a change: Mobile Tractor Unit should not be anchorable less than 200 km from ESS. Or MTU should be shot by NPCs - it would also help making Noctis relevant ship again.

    And I agree with the idea of anchorable bubbles being shot by NPCs.


    No.

    You already are enjoying the fruits of a broken ship; specifically, Malediction. Judging by your killboard, it looks like you are extremely risk averse and almost exclusively fly insta-warp Maledictions, which are, to the best of my knowledge, nigh-impossible to catch in any type of space. You also appear to be multiboxing those ships.

    You are suggesting this MTU change to make it easier for you to steal from any ESS. If anything, as long as insta-warp/no risk/perfect safety in any space interceptors which can deal damage continue to exist, it should be harder to steal from ESS, not easier. (I'm guessing even with ESS without rats around it, you are using empty pod alts to steal, and an insta-align interceptor to grab the spoils, thus risking absolutely nothing in exchange for a reward that is not offered anywhere else in the game at this risk:reward ratio)

    Tell us why any risk-averse instawarp interceptor pilot should be given opportunities to obtain great rewards at all?


    He's totally not abusing a broken game mechanic. He's ~elite PeeVeePee~ and entitled to those spoils at absolutely no risk!
    Zao Elongur
    Porphyr Empire
    #56 - 2014-11-23 17:20:21 UTC
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    Yet I did not misunderstand anything. What you're failing to grasp here is that your narrow vision of the way to loot an ESS is flawed at a fundamental level, which is why it does not succeed. You're either unwilling or unable to admit that you're not doing it right, and therefore want CCP to fix it for you rather than figure out the right way to do it.

    One of the guys in an old Corp of mine used to keep an ESS at the end of a static complex that was far, far more difficult than any full spawn anom. He kept it there until it got looted and destroyed by two people in cruisers. Therefore I say your insistence on the presence of battleships is utter rubbish. Furthermore, if you knew the mechanics involved behind how things like gun tracking works, you would understand that taking a battleship into a full spawn anom full of frigates and cruisers is simply asking to have them destroy that battleship. Your entire argument seems based on a lack of understanding into how this game works, and since you don't understand it, you want it changed into something else.

    As to your issues with forming an ESS fleet, get used to them. Hunting ESSes is essentially PvE under a thin veneer of PvP, and most players I've run across seem to understand this. If you're moderately intelligent, and understand the use of a scout, travelling in nullsec is safe, even for neuts. Gate camps are simply a fact of life in null, and you can either try to go around them, or you can try to bust them up. If your highsec friends are too scared or too risk averse to traverse the badlands of nullsec, perhaps you need a better quality of friend. Perhaps yourself needs to leave highsec for a while and learn the game. Maybe then you'll understand that the problem lies with you, not the ESS.


    EXPECTING ESS TO PROMOTE PVP, or even the hint of pvp by having DEFENDING PLAYERS instead of some rats in an anomaly is not a flawed vission, it IS HOW ESS SHOULD WORK
    ESSes were meant to ENRICHING the gameplay for BOTH the thief and the defender, not act like an income bonus for the defender and just isk for the attacker.

    "but there are ways around that!" ... "ESS is working as intended" ....
    "If you cannot find ways around ESSes in anomalies then it is your problem"
    "omg dude, i stole 300m with 2 friends the other day, you suck"

    Who said i do not know how to steal from esses in anomalies?
    Who said i do not steal from esses in anomalies?
    Who said that stealing from ESS is my primary isk-making activity?
    Who said i live in high-sec?
    Who said that because i post with an alt for reasons of anonomity, you people should make the most imbecilious assumptions?

    Iain Cariaba wrote:

    1: People don't see value in having ESSes because of how easy it is to loot and destroy them, yet here you are trying to make it easier to get at them because you claim it is too hard. Guess what, EvE is hard.

    2: No, your friends don't want to form ESS fleets because they are apparently risk averse highsec carebears too scared to come into null. You pretty much admit this in your above example on why people don't do this.

    3: Good for you. Now you just need to learn the proper way to get at them and you're set.

    4: Again, it can be done solo, it's just easier with a group. Stop doing it wrong and it'll work.

    5: I don't assume that ESS is your primary income, simply based on you being bad at it.


    1: No, you just have no clue what you are talking about. The majority of ESSes are in systems MANY jumps away from conflict zones, and many jumps away from hisec/lowsec/hostile space.
    The majority of ESSes that actually have isk ARE in anomalies, and/or DO get defended, if you had ever been in a null sec alliance and did ANYTHING in null sec, you would know how things actually work.
    Neut in system ->
    a) report in intel channel,
    b) if you fly expensive ****, stop all activity and get safe,
    c) see if there are more (read intel if you havent), dscan, Judge if it a scout/explorer/thief/blop blaper,
    d) Act.
    The ESS stealing pirate manages to steal not because it is "easy" but because the defenders dont do what they were supposed to, or they take too much time to react.
    btw ESSes that do get destroyed is because they are in a "bad system", meaning not far enought from danger, which gets them destroyed by an enemy fleet / roaming pirate fleets.
    Should i write how stupid it would be for the ESS stealing pirate to kill an ESS instead of bookmarking it to steal again?

    2: I live in nullsec, i do not have "risk averse" highsec friends, but you have to make stupid assumptions to attack me instead of what i say.

    3: Again, argueing about how they should be VS what they are does not mean that i do not already steal from ESSes in anomalies. but again stupid assumptions.

    4: Sure, i will go to convince my mates to dock up their carriers and come with me 60 jumps away to play internet pirate, ill temp them with making nothing in return and i bet they will come :)

    5: I made my first post in the subsection for suggestions, to actually sugest something because i DO know what i am talking about and i DO want it fixed. But no, people have to make the stupid assumption that i cannot steal because i want it fixed!
    Zao Elongur
    Porphyr Empire
    #57 - 2014-11-23 18:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zao Elongur
    Nergal Hurrian wrote:
    You are suggesting this MTU change to make it easier for you to steal from any ESS. If anything, as long as insta-warp/no risk/perfect safety in any space interceptors which can deal damage continue to exist, it should be harder to steal from ESS, not easier. (I'm guessing even with ESS without rats around it, you are using empty pod alts to steal, and an insta-align interceptor to grab the spoils, thus risking absolutely nothing in exchange for a reward that is not offered anywhere else in the game at this risk:reward ratio)

    Tell us why any risk-averse instawarp interceptor pilot should be given opportunities to obtain great rewards at all?


    a) Having a simple ESS
    b) Having a simple ESS with a defenders MTU
    c) Having an Anomaly ESS
    d) Having an Anomaly ESS with a defenders MTU

    And all that while you ratters have intel and the ability to share / defend before the pirate even reaches the system ... is not enought defence. It is a walk in the park for the evil pirate who flies a magical ceptor! They get risk-free 'great' rewards!
    Iain Cariaba
    #58 - 2014-11-23 19:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
    Zao Elongur wrote:
    EXPECTING ESS TO PROMOTE PVP, or even the hint of pvp by having DEFENDING PLAYERS instead of some rats in an anomaly is not a flawed vission, it IS HOW ESS SHOULD WORK
    ESSes were meant to ENRICHING the gameplay for BOTH the thief and the defender, not act like an income bonus for the defender and just isk for the attacker.

    Regardless of intention, the simple fact of the matter is that an ESS is nothing more than an income bonus for the user, and an isk source for the thief. The average ratter only cares about their isk/hr ratio when they're ratting, especially the ones in the bigger alliances who would rather be in fleets. If you force them to set the ESS in an easy to get to location, under the misguided pretense of "it will generate more PvP," and make them stop ratting to defend the ESS every time a neut enters system, they will simply stop using ESSes. It would be more time effective to simply safe up, watch you fly through the system, then go back to ratting than it would be to reship and defend the easily accessible ESS.

    Zao Elongur wrote:
    "but there are ways around that!" ... "ESS is working as intended" ....
    "If you cannot find ways around ESSes in anomalies then it is your problem"
    "omg dude, i stole 300m with 2 friends the other day, you suck"

    Yep, all this applies.

    Zao Elongur wrote:
    Who said i do not know how to steal from esses in anomalies?
    Who said i do not steal from esses in anomalies?
    Who said that stealing from ESS is my primary isk-making activity?
    Who said i live in high-sec?
    Who said that because i post with an alt for reasons of anonomity, you people should make the most imbecilious assumptions?

    1: You did with that failed tengu experiment.
    2: No one did.
    3: No one did, in fact it is obvious that is not the case.
    4: That conclusion was derived from your whininess level, your comments about ESSes in anoms being too scary for those in highsec, and your lack of employment history and killboard history.
    5: You are represented on this forum by the character you choose to post with. When you post with a character that looks like a highsec carebear, don't be surprised when you get treated like a highsec carebear.

    Zao Elongur wrote:
    1: The majority of ESSes that actually have isk ARE in anomalies, and/or DO get defended (I edited this one to remove the butthurt rambling and left the point of note. Iain)

    2: I live in nullsec, i do not have "risk averse" highsec friends, but you have to make stupid assumptions to attack me instead of what i say.

    3: Again, argueing about how they should be VS what they are does not mean that i do not already steal from ESSes in anomalies. but again stupid assumptions.

    4: Sure, i will go to convince my mates to dock up their carriers and come with me 60 jumps away to play internet pirate, ill temp them with making nothing in return and i bet they will come :)

    5: I made my first post in the subsection for suggestions, to actually sugest something because i DO know what i am talking about and i DO want it fixed. But no, people have to make the stupid assumption that i cannot steal because i want it fixed!

    1: Which is why they have isk. Look at the percentage of ESSes outside anoms that actually get defended compared to the entire count of ESSes. If you get your way, and ESSes become easier to get to, that percentage is going to be the total number of ESSes in space outside of noobs that don't know any better. It is the basic mentality of this game.
    2: No, I live in nullsec. I have employment history and killboard to back that statement up. You lack either of these, so are just another risk averse highsec carebear whining for easy isk.
    3: I didn't say you don't steal from them, just that if you're so bad at it that you have to whine on forums about it, you're doing it wrong.
    4: Wow, are you going to start a new thread whining for CCP to give you better friends too, or are you just going to use this thread? Your lack of ability to convince your friends to actually do something is not my concern.
    5: Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't make it broken. Lots of other players steal from ESSes in anoms all the time without all problems you keep crying about.
    Zao Elongur
    Porphyr Empire
    #59 - 2014-11-23 20:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zao Elongur
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    Regardless of intention, the simple fact of the matter is that an ESS is nothing more than an income bonus for the user, and an isk source for the thief. The average ratter only cares about their isk/hr ratio when they're ratting, especially the ones in the bigger alliances who would rather be in fleets. If you force them to set the ESS in an easy to get to location, under the misguided pretense of "it will generate more PvP," and make them stop ratting to defend the ESS every time a neut enters system, they will simply stop using ESSes.


    Congradulations, you partially understood why ESS is structure that fails to deliver the concept.

    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    1: You did with that failed tengu experiment.


    My failed tengu experiment was meant to test if a pilot could tank solo a fully spawned anomaly with a ship that could make the trip safelly and survive hunting parties.
    It was an effort to see if some tactics (eg -> abandoning ship in spce to steal with pod) could be avoided, and to test the feasability of stealing even from Anom-ESS with an MTU solo or with a tiny fleet.

    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    4: That conclusion was derived from your whininess level, your comments about ESSes in anoms being too scary for those in highsec, and your lack of employment history and killboard history.
    5: You are represented on this forum by the character you choose to post with. When you post with a character that looks like a highsec carebear, don't be surprised when you get treated like a highsec carebear.


    I do not play eve-forums-online, and the typical forum mentalities are none of my concern.
    It is annoying that instead of having an actual discussion, i have to either explain obvious stuff to inexperienced or simply iased forum warriors, or defend arguements against me and not to what i say...

    Iain Cariaba wrote:

    1: Which is why they have isk. Look at the percentage of ESSes outside anoms that actually get defended compared to the entire count of ESSes. If you get your way, and ESSes become easier to get to, that percentage is going to be the total number of ESSes in space outside of noobs that don't know any better. It is the basic mentality of this game.
    2: No, I live in nullsec. I have employment history and killboard to back that statement up. You lack either of these, so are just another risk averse highsec carebear whining for easy isk.
    3: I didn't say you don't steal from them, just that if you're so bad at it that you have to whine on forums about it, you're doing it wrong.
    4: Wow, are you going to start a new thread whining for CCP to give you better friends too, or are you just going to use this thread? Your lack of ability to convince your friends to actually do something is not my concern.
    5: Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't make it broken. Lots of other players steal from ESSes in anoms all the time without all problems you keep crying about.


    1: Which is why i meantioned increasing the pay out for the ratter while keeping it stable for the pirate. Attention
    Is it not obvious that fixing the ESS doesn't mean ruining it in a different way? Do you get it or i have to make a drawing of it?

    2+3+4: I have the choice to not expose my true identity to imbeciles like you that think an employment history and a killbord has anything to do with arguements. Or believe that suggesting something implies i should be absolutely biased about it, Or believe that i should be bullshiting to my friends and waste their time.

    5: Attentionit is broken because it fails to deliver the concept it was designed to fullfillAttention

    6: repeat step 5 untill you comprehend

    7: you still dont comprehend? go read what others are saying and smb
    http://www.themittani.com/features/ess-emergent-gameplay-lemonade-lemons
    Iain Cariaba
    #60 - 2014-11-23 20:18:52 UTC
    Zao Elongur wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    Regardless of intention, the simple fact of the matter is that an ESS is nothing more than an income bonus for the user, and an isk source for the thief. The average ratter only cares about their isk/hr ratio when they're ratting, especially the ones in the bigger alliances who would rather be in fleets. If you force them to set the ESS in an easy to get to location, under the misguided pretense of "it will generate more PvP," and make them stop ratting to defend the ESS every time a neut enters system, they will simply stop using ESSes.


    Congradulations, you partially understood why ESS is structure that fails to deliver the concept.

    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    1: You did with that failed tengu experiment.


    My failed tengu experiment was meant to test if a pilot could tank solo a fully spawned anomaly with a ship that could make the trip safelly and survive hunting parties.
    It was an effort to see if some tactics (eg -> abandoning ship in spce to steal with pod) could be avoided, and to test the feasability of stealing even from Anom-ESS with an MTU solo or with a tiny fleet.

    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    4: That conclusion was derived from your whininess level, your comments about ESSes in anoms being too scary for those in highsec, and your lack of employment history and killboard history.
    5: You are represented on this forum by the character you choose to post with. When you post with a character that looks like a highsec carebear, don't be surprised when you get treated like a highsec carebear.


    I do not play eve-forums-online, and the typical forum mentalities are none of my concern.
    It is annoying that instead of having an actual discussion, i have to either explain obvious stuff to inexperienced or simply iased forum warriors, or defend arguements against me and not to what i say...

    Iain Cariaba wrote:

    1: Which is why they have isk. Look at the percentage of ESSes outside anoms that actually get defended compared to the entire count of ESSes. If you get your way, and ESSes become easier to get to, that percentage is going to be the total number of ESSes in space outside of noobs that don't know any better. It is the basic mentality of this game.
    2: No, I live in nullsec. I have employment history and killboard to back that statement up. You lack either of these, so are just another risk averse highsec carebear whining for easy isk.
    3: I didn't say you don't steal from them, just that if you're so bad at it that you have to whine on forums about it, you're doing it wrong.
    4: Wow, are you going to start a new thread whining for CCP to give you better friends too, or are you just going to use this thread? Your lack of ability to convince your friends to actually do something is not my concern.
    5: Just because you don't like the way it works doesn't make it broken. Lots of other players steal from ESSes in anoms all the time without all problems you keep crying about.


    1: Which is why i meantioned increasing the pay out for the ratter while keeping it stable for the pirate. Attention
    Is it not obvious that fixing the ESS doesn't mean ruining it in a different way? Do you get it or i have to make a drawing of it?

    2+3+4: I have the choice to not expose my true identity to imbeciles like you that think an employment history and a killbord has anything to do with arguements. Or believe that suggesting something implies i should be absolutely biased about it, Or believe that i should be bullshiting to my friends and waste their time.

    5: Attentionit is broken because it fails to deliver the concept it was designed to fullfillAttention

    6: repeat step 5 untill you comprehend

    7: you still dont comprehend? go read what others are saying and smb
    http://www.themittani.com/features/ess-emergent-gameplay-lemonade-lemons

    Wow, I do believe I hit a nerve there, so I'm only going to say this one more time, otherwise you might blow a gasket, then I'm done with you.

    ESS works fine, does not need improved upon, and definitely does not need pulled out of anomalies simply because you fail to find a method that allows you to do steal from them solo. Reread this thread and you find the answer.

    Lrn2EvE