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The 4.7%: Wardecs with a Purpose
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#241 - 2014-11-21 17:15:07 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

There are plenty of things a defender can do, and only one of them is rational, despite being negative to both grief deccer and defender - dodge the grief dec.


That's because the dec dodge exploit is more efficacious than legitimate methods of gameplay.

That's why it needs to be removed, because there is not supposed to be a one shot, no thought solution to wardecs.

Quote:

The rest of the options are irrational, inefficient, and the best they can do is give risk-averse grief bunnies some good scare, but no losses, due to invulnerability exploit of sitting on Jita undock.


Lol, docking is not an exploit. Much as I don't care for station games, they are legitimate gameplay.

It's not, nor will it ever be an "exploit" to dock up.

So knock off your lies already. Any, literally any tactic available to the aggressor of a war is equally available to the defender.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Prince Kobol
#242 - 2014-11-21 17:17:52 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

If a High Sec Corp is worth fighting for then people will find a way to defeat their aggressors.

At the moment there is very little motivation for anybody in a High Sec Corp to stay and fight. It is just far far far easier to leave and wait it out or just fold the corp all together.

Why actually bother to try and fight or pay somebody to fight for you if the thing your fighting worth is worthless?


You're getting closer to the root issue, go on!
Here's a tip: Imagine you got grief decced and decided to stand up and fight. So you fleet up... aaaaaaand find out your target is invulnerable, risk-averse hisec bunny who docks up when your fleet is spotted by neutral scout alt 3 systems away.
Your actions?

If you make a right step, I will give you the next tip!



I have been in many High Sec Corps whilst under War Dec when Eve was a lot more lets say harsher on the newer player.

Lost a lot of ships but I learnt from each engagement.

The last time I simply went and lived in Low Sec for a few weeks and guess what, they didn't follow, after that I moved to a WH Corp and then to Null Sec, never really been back in High Sec since.

However all of this is beside the point because many people simply drop corp because it is simply not worth their time or effort.

We are back to Risk V Reward.

What rewards does a High Sec player for fighting and what are the risks.

The risks are plenty but the rewards are very few.

CCP need to give people a reason to fight for their Corps, with that reason then people will be much more inclined to learn how to fight back.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#243 - 2014-11-21 17:22:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That's because the dec dodge exploit is more efficacious than legitimate methods of gameplay.
That's why it needs to be removed, because there is not supposed to be a one shot, no thought solution to wardecs.

Quote:

The rest of the options are irrational, inefficient, and the best they can do is give risk-averse grief bunnies some good scare, but no losses, due to invulnerability exploit of sitting on Jita undock.


Lol, docking is not an exploit. Much as I don't care for station games, they are legitimate gameplay.

It's not, nor will it ever be an "exploit" to dock up.

So knock off your lies already. Any, literally any tactic available to the aggressor of a war is equally available to the defender.


So we need to remove alts as well then? Because playing on alts is a one shot no thought solution to grief decs.
First we need to think of a way of promoting grief decs to war decs by removing invulberabiliyt exploit. Then we can talk about war dec avoidance. Grief dec avoidance is countering exploit with exploit, and while questionable in ethics, I'd say the grief dec exploiting came first and thus needs to go first, then the counter-exploit of dec-dodging might be worked on.

See, I'm not married to that "exploit", I don't insist we must keep it, I merely point out that killing people while staying invulnerable on undock for a mere 50m/week is a textbook exploit, and if you want to shoot so badly, come out and shoot, I have no problems with people who come out and shoot, and not just camp choke points like your corp. I'd say even coming out and shooting has too little risk, since you can always avoid the fight that the barge can't avoid, but to hell with it, I never said it should be fair, but it should be exploit-less for sure.

My only issue has, since the beginning of the thread, were lack of meaningless rational options (you haven't provided any btw) on the defender's side of a grief dec. Nothing else.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#244 - 2014-11-21 17:22:48 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

CCP need to give people a reason to fight for their Corps, with that reason then people will be much more inclined to learn how to fight back.


My position on that has been clear for some time.

NPC corps should be sufficiently disadvantageous as to make player corps something distinctly worth protecting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#245 - 2014-11-21 17:24:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

CCP need to give people a reason to fight for their Corps, with that reason then people will be much more inclined to learn how to fight back.


My position on that has been clear for some time.

NPC corps should be sufficiently disadvantageous as to make player corps something distinctly worth protecting.


How? Even if you remove NPC corps entirely...what is to stop me from having 12 alts and just docking all the ones that get wardecced, and playing on one of the non-decced ones?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#246 - 2014-11-21 17:26:10 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

First we need to think of a way of promoting grief decs to war decs by removing invulberabiliyt exploit.


Considering that there is no "invulnerability exploit"...


Quote:
Grief dec avoidance is countering exploit with exploit


No, it's not. It's countering a legitimate game mechanic with an exploit.


Quote:
I'd say the grief dec exploiting came first and thus needs to go first


There is no "grief dec exploit".

You straight up admitted that you're talking about camping trade hubs. That is not, nor will it ever be an exploit.

Quote:
I merely point out that killing people while staying invulnerable on undock for a mere 50m/week is a textbook exploit


No, it isn't. Stop lying, for once in your misbegotten life.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#247 - 2014-11-21 17:26:52 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

I have been in many High Sec Corps whilst under War Dec when Eve was a lot more lets say harsher on the newer player.

Lost a lot of ships but I learnt from each engagement.

The last time I simply went and lived in Low Sec for a few weeks and guess what, they didn't follow, after that I moved to a WH Corp and then to Null Sec, never really been back in High Sec since.

However all of this is beside the point because many people simply drop corp because it is simply not worth their time or effort.

We are back to Risk V Reward.

What rewards does a High Sec player for fighting and what are the risks.

The risks are plenty but the rewards are very few.

CCP need to give people a reason to fight for their Corps, with that reason then people will be much more inclined to learn how to fight back.


So am I. Managed to come out at zero losses though, because I'm not a masochist.

You were going right direction but strayed away in the end, so I repeat the tip.
You manned up, you brought a fleet, you are fighting for your corp like you have no tomorrow without it. Then you notice your grief deccer is using invulnerability exploit on Jita undock and no matter how much you shoot, nobody died. What can you do to make him fight properly? What can you do with your fleet to stop grief dec?

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#248 - 2014-11-21 17:28:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

First we need to think of a way of promoting grief decs to war decs by removing invulberabiliyt exploit.


Considering that there is no "invulnerability exploit"...


Quote:
Grief dec avoidance is countering exploit with exploit


No, it's not. It's countering a legitimate game mechanic with an exploit.


Quote:
I'd say the grief dec exploiting came first and thus needs to go first


There is no "grief dec exploit".

You straight up admitted that you're talking about camping trade hubs. That is not, nor will it ever be an exploit.

Quote:
I merely point out that killing people while staying invulnerable on undock for a mere 50m/week is a textbook exploit


No, it isn't. Stop lying, for once in your misbegotten life.


It's really hard talking to illiterate people.
Ok, let's try cretin language.
"You shoot, enemy no die, why keep shooting?"
I'm expecting an answer and not yet another nonsensual post with empty claims.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#249 - 2014-11-21 17:28:29 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Then you notice your grief deccer is using invulnerability exploit on Jita undock and no matter how much you shoot, nobody died. What can you do to make him fight properly? What can you do with your fleet to stop grief dec?


Docking is not an exploit, nor will it ever be.

And if all they do is camp trade hubs, then it's really very easy to not get killed by them. You would be 100% unaffected.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#250 - 2014-11-21 17:28:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

How? Even if you remove NPC corps entirely...what is to stop me from having 12 alts and just docking all the ones that get wardecced, and playing on one of the non-decced ones?



I don't get why you haven't been getting it in the multiple threads on this subject. You wanna play on your other account while your main is decced? GO RIGHT AHEAD, NOBODY F'KIN CARES! The dec denies at least 1 of your toons opportunity to make isk, to have fun with, etc. Wardecs are less about killing and more about inconveniencing the targets.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#251 - 2014-11-21 17:29:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Quote:


A war dec, then, is simply a tool that affect noobies. Which brings us to the next point:


Even if that's the case (it's not), what's the problem with that? EVE tends to follow 'reality' when it comes to conflict (unlike themepark games which mechanically shield players for the realities of conflict). The reality here is that the strong pick on the weak, their is no 'honor', and the best thing you can do is learn the rules of gunfighting.

No problem, but I'd like to give new players an actual chance to read those rules of gunfighting so as to enrich this sandbox to better MY gameplay. I'd rather pop a vets tengu or ratting carrier, than a noobies caracal. Selfish, I admit.


Jenn aSide wrote:

My favorite EVE quote comes from Malcanis: "EVE Online: A game where you start out as a child in park full of pedophiles. If you're smart and ruthless, eventually you become one of the pedophiles".

Lovely imagery there, thank you.

Jenn aSide wrote:

i care about the integrity of the game, and it's original (harsh, dystopian and thus ENJOYABLE) vision. a vision being eroded slowly by bleeding heart type people who defend the kinds of weakness displayed by too many high sec forum posters.

The original vision for eve was an all in one scifi mmo that featured WiS, walking on planets, flying in atmospheres, and a host of other things. Actually, that's a lie. The original vision for eve was to be another run of the mill 2 year mmo that no one remembers, in order to get the funds for the real work to begin on Eve 2, which would have all of the aforementioned things. We all know how that turned out...
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#252 - 2014-11-21 17:31:03 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

How? Even if you remove NPC corps entirely...what is to stop me from having 12 alts and just docking all the ones that get wardecced, and playing on one of the non-decced ones?



I don't get why you haven't been getting it in the multiple threads on this subject. You wanna play on your other account while your main is decced? GO RIGHT AHEAD, NOBODY F'KIN CARES! The dec denies at least 1 of your toons opportunity to make isk, to have fun with, etc. Wardecs are less about killing and more about inconveniencing the targets.


I see - so the purpose of wars is to blockade a single character for a week, which only harms those too new/casual/poor to have alts. And you wonder why people think wardeccs are broken?
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#253 - 2014-11-21 17:35:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Then you notice your grief deccer is using invulnerability exploit on Jita undock and no matter how much you shoot, nobody died. What can you do to make him fight properly? What can you do with your fleet to stop grief dec?


Docking is not an exploit, nor will it ever be.

And if all they do is camp trade hubs, then it's really very easy to not get killed by them. You would be 100% unaffected.

You contradicted yourself so many times already I lost count.
Docking is not an exploit. Grief deccing than shooting people while staying invulnerable yourself is an exploit.
It's what your alliance does. But it may stop doing that and come around any moment, and there is nothing you can meaningfully do to stop that, complete risk-free loss infliction at a joke of a cost, which gets naturally and rationally avoided with something you one-sidedly consider exploit, and it's not.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#254 - 2014-11-21 17:38:17 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Docking is not an exploit. Grief deccing than shooting people while staying invulnerable yourself is an exploit.


And that can't actually happen. You're talking about camping trade hubs.

Which is not an exploit, at all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#255 - 2014-11-21 17:41:09 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

How? Even if you remove NPC corps entirely...what is to stop me from having 12 alts and just docking all the ones that get wardecced, and playing on one of the non-decced ones?



I don't get why you haven't been getting it in the multiple threads on this subject. You wanna play on your other account while your main is decced? GO RIGHT AHEAD, NOBODY F'KIN CARES! The dec denies at least 1 of your toons opportunity to make isk, to have fun with, etc. Wardecs are less about killing and more about inconveniencing the targets.


I see - so the purpose of wars is to blockade a single character for a week, which only harms those too new/casual/poor to have alts. And you wonder why people think wardeccs are broken?


Where in the hell do you get that it's about 1 character? Hell, maybe it Is because of 1 character, the dec affects everyone in the target corp. DUH. I was responding to your childish "neener neener! u cant make me undock neener neener!"

It's hard to not get into ad hom's with you, because you really are worth one. I fear even the short bus was a little too fast for you to catch.




\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#256 - 2014-11-21 17:41:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Docking is not an exploit. Grief deccing than shooting people while staying invulnerable yourself is an exploit.


And that can't actually happen. You're talking about camping trade hubs.

Which is not an exploit, at all.


Except it's what your alliance does, and marmites do, and every other hisec pansy leet peeveepeeer does.
How did you persuaded yourself it's not an exploit, while a MAJOR PITA of rolling corp is?

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#257 - 2014-11-21 17:43:48 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Except it's what your alliance does, and marmites do, and every other hisec pansy leet peeveepeeer does.
How did you persuaded yourself it's not an exploit, while a MAJOR PITA of rolling corp is?


First of all, you don't seem to be too familiar with Devils. We're not Marmite, that's for sure.

Secondly, the dec dodge exploit takes moments, costs a pittance, and is in no way a pain in the ass. It is a one shot, no thought dissolution of a wardec, which bypasses the surrender mechanic (the intended way to dissolve decs, by the way).

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#258 - 2014-11-21 17:46:09 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

How? Even if you remove NPC corps entirely...what is to stop me from having 12 alts and just docking all the ones that get wardecced, and playing on one of the non-decced ones?



I don't get why you haven't been getting it in the multiple threads on this subject. You wanna play on your other account while your main is decced? GO RIGHT AHEAD, NOBODY F'KIN CARES! The dec denies at least 1 of your toons opportunity to make isk, to have fun with, etc. Wardecs are less about killing and more about inconveniencing the targets.


I see - so the purpose of wars is to blockade a single character for a week, which only harms those too new/casual/poor to have alts. And you wonder why people think wardeccs are broken?


Where in the hell do you get that it's about 1 character? Hell, maybe it Is because of 1 character, the dec affects everyone in the target corp. DUH. I was responding to your childish "neener neener! u cant make me undock neener neener!"

It's hard to not get into ad hom's with you, because you really are worth one. I fear even the short bus was a little too fast for you to catch.






Not sure what you are trying to say. Even if we got rid of dec dodging and npc corps, the wardecc targets could still happily achieve all of the same gameplay on alts, making the wardecc useless. The problem isn't dec dodging, the problem is wardeccs themselves when there is no penalty for docking up and playing on alts.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#259 - 2014-11-21 17:48:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Except it's what your alliance does, and marmites do, and every other hisec pansy leet peeveepeeer does.
How did you persuaded yourself it's not an exploit, while a MAJOR PITA of rolling corp is?


First of all, you don't seem to be too familiar with Devils. We're not Marmite, that's for sure.

Secondly, the dec dodge exploit takes moments, costs a pittance, and is in no way a pain in the ass. It is a one shot, no thought dissolution of a wardec, which bypasses the surrender mechanic (the intended way to dissolve decs, by the way).


First of all, we have met on grid with the Devils during a grief dec half a year ago.

Secondly, the dec dodge exploit takes 24 hours to drop roles, a major PITA of taking down POS then putting it up again, accepting people back, setting roles again, filling corp hangars as they were, and other instances of major PITA issues a grief deccer would never imagine.

It's a 24 hours shot very much thought and actions dissolution of a grief dec which can be instantly resumed on a new corp.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#260 - 2014-11-21 17:59:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not sure what you are trying to say. Even if we got rid of dec dodging and npc corps, the wardecc targets could still happily achieve all of the same gameplay on alts, making the wardecc useless.


As you said yourself, perhaps the targets are too new, poor, etc to have decent alts. Even if they have a baby alt, its likely not going to be skilled as much as the main, nor even in the main's favorite flavor of Eve. Some ppl make trader alts, for example. By denying them meaningful access to their normal playstyle, you are inflicting harm and inconvenience. In any event, you are te cause of the target playing other than how he would really like to.

Quote:

The problem isn't dec dodging, the problem is wardeccs themselves when there is no penalty for docking up and playing on alts.


Here I find myself in agreement with you. Surely this is a sign of the Apocalypse. Although, really, what youre talking about IS dec dodging.

In the end, even a dodged dec is a succesful dec, because as I said, you are denying your targets content, or at least their first choice in content. Ive been decced and I've paid for decs. The #1 thing a corp does to protect themselves is to deny the deccer any kills. Go live in lowsec, stay docked up and play an alt, whatever. If the deccers arent getting kills on you, theyll not deck again for more kills, and/or the sponsor of the war isnt getting his money's worth, and wont pay for a redec.

In the end, it's really just a way to barb someone you dont like.


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project