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[Ship Proposal] Skiff is overpowered & needs a rebalance.

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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1 - 2014-11-20 18:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bethan Le Troix
My initial post on the C&P board to field opinion on whether the Skiff needs a further rebalance, entitled 'Are Skiffs overpowered? Discuss.......' has been quite popular with varied viewpoints given.

Initially I was coming from the issue with a personal bias that the base EHP on the Skiff was too high but upon reflection this was the wrong angle to approach the problem from. After ten pages of replies the 'sensible' peoples consensus appears to be that a reduction in the mining yield of the Skiff is the right move to take,

Currently the Skiff has virtually everything in its favour with virtually no drawbacks. It has the same yield as the Mackinaw, a decent ore hold, a vast tank compared to the other T2 mining vessels, plus the ability to attack jet can thieves with a large drone damage ability.

Decreasing the ore hold will not change anything as the Skiff is usually in a fleet with hauler support.
The vast tank is the main ability change so this would probably need to stay at or near the current level.
The large drone damage ability is useful while mining in nullsec which arguably was its intended use.

AMENDED PROPOSAL: I propose that CCP examines the statistics of the Skiff and considers whether the mining yield of the Skiff should be reduced by a percentage decided by them given the other positive strengths of the vessel compared to other mining vessels.

I would say the current Skiff statistics rival the status of mining vessels before they had been rebalanced at all. This situation makes the Skiff the "best ship" to mine in. CCP's current agenda states that all ships should have roles and no "best ships" should exist so the base stats of the Skiff have to be rebalanced !!

I invite constructive comments from all interested parties and especially the CCP Devs concerned with rebalancing of ships.


Special thanks to Meilandra Vandergankens for her constructive criticisms and ideas on this issue.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-11-20 18:24:11 UTC
come on ... but mackinav have the bigest ore hold and hulk mines the most ...


and skiff is the tankes one.
i don't see the problem. a lot of people mine in mackinaws and hulks and skiff is still a rather rare sight. Blink

i think it's well balanced

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#3 - 2014-11-20 18:24:11 UTC
So.. Nerf it in highsec, because they are hard to gank?

If you made it a universal argument, there would be more water in the argument. Sounds like you are mad that you can't solo or duo one.

You need a better argument.

Yaay!!!!
Ix Method
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-11-20 18:31:59 UTC
The value of the Mack's Ore Hold was the reason Skiff yield got buffed and this has not changed. The advantages of the Hulk are obvious. Take gankers out of the equation and they're very well balanced.

They only seem OP because people huddle into places close to hubs and act surprised when they get ganked. That some people choose to live under the thumb of roleplayers, well, that's their choice innit.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#5 - 2014-11-20 18:40:12 UTC
I could see the Skiff losing a touch of Ore Hold to bring it more in line with Hulk, but having the same yield as the Mack is fine.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#6 - 2014-11-20 18:45:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, and the Skiff gains an extra low slot (bringing its fitted yield up to the same level as the Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.



I think it's very well balanced , i still see a lot of Mack and hulk in belt, perhaps CCP should buff Mackinaw HP, it's too easy to gank with catalyst now.
Anyway i think that suicide ganking is far too strong, and having a high security status should influence CONCORD's respond time, high S.S. should have consequence like me with my -10.
Ormand Audel
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-11-20 19:04:32 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
come on ... but mackinav have the bigest ore hold and hulk mines the most ...


and skiff is the tankes one.
i don't see the problem. a lot of people mine in mackinaws and hulks and skiff is still a rather rare sight. Blink

i think it's well balanced

But the problem is the fact that the skiff loses very little yield for a massive increase in tank.
Ix Method wrote:
The value of the Mack's Ore Hold was the reason Skiff yield got buffed and this has not changed. The advantages of the Hulk are obvious. Take gankers out of the equation and they're very well balanced.

They only seem OP because people huddle into places close to hubs and act surprised when they get ganked. That some people choose to live under the thumb of roleplayers, well, that's their choice innit.
Take gankers out of the equation and they're very well balanced? Sure, yield wise. But that's the problem, the skiff shouldn't be nearly as good as the hulk at fleet mining. Which it is. I think the numbers ended up being something like the Hulk had 1.3* more yield but can go beyond 4* less tank.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-11-20 19:08:22 UTC
That's because 9/10 yield is more important and therefore more valuable when considering balance Smile

Travelling at the speed of love.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-11-20 19:42:12 UTC
Quote:


The proposal : Reduce the yield of the Skiff to one third of the yield of the Mackinaw. To encourage mining & industry in nullsec give the Skiff a 3x modifier on ores that are only found outside of high sec.



Just a glance without doing any math: an exhumer with lower yield than a Venture on most ores........

Yeah, I can see another nerf to yield but........no.
Sgt Soulless
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-11-20 20:53:54 UTC
Nope. Better fix. Give all the mining barges a tank comparable to a skiff or procurer. Use ganker tears to irrigate the world's deserts.

Seriously though. This just sounds like some butt hurt highsec gankers complaining about the fact that a skiff is not a 0 effort kill like every other mining barge. It's not supposed to be. Deal with it. It's PartOfTheSandbox®.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#11 - 2014-11-20 22:53:02 UTC
Ganker whining that it is too hard to gank in highsec. Demands nerfs to make it even easier to commit crimes in highsec.

-1
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#12 - 2014-11-20 23:07:22 UTC
Erm. You guys are not fully reading what I have written in this proposal nor the ten pages of comments and other peoples deductions & observations in my previous discussion OP on the C&P board.

Put aside for the moment the fact that I work for small miners to keep one system available for them to mine in and use available in-game mechanics including occasional attacks on ships & infrastructure.

I am purely pointing out that the current configuration of the Skiff is where the Hulk was before the first iteration of ship rebalancing was done by CCP. At that time everyone would look to skill up to a Hulk for ore mining and the Mackinaw for ice mining as those were the best ships for the job. A lot of miners haven't realised it but the Skiff currently has taken the place of both the Hulk & the Mackinaw at the pre rebalancing stage of EVE.

My proposal here atm has nothing to do with difficulty of being able to destroy Skiffs but that they have become the best ship to mine in and therefore the other mining vessels have become essentially surplus to requirements. This goes against CCP role-based system of ship types. If you can't see this you are blind.

Still waiting for a comment from CCP Fozzie or another of the CCP devs on this one.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#13 - 2014-11-20 23:24:29 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Erm. You guys are not fully reading what I have written in this proposal nor the ten pages of comments and other peoples deductions & observations in my previous discussion OP on the C&P board.

Put aside for the moment the fact that I work for small miners to keep one system available for them to mine in and use available in-game mechanics including occasional attacks on ships & infrastructure.

I am purely pointing out that the current configuration of the Skiff is where the Hulk was before the first iteration of ship rebalancing was done by CCP. At that time everyone would look to skill up to a Hulk for ore mining and the Mackinaw for ice mining as those were the best ships for the job. A lot of miners haven't realised it but the Skiff currently has taken the place of both the Hulk & the Mackinaw at the pre rebalancing stage of EVE.

My proposal here atm has nothing to do with difficulty of being able to destroy Skiffs but that they have become the best ship to mine in and therefore the other mining vessels have become essentially surplus to requirements. This goes against CCP role-based system of ship types. If you can't see this you are blind.

Still waiting for a comment from CCP Fozzie or another of the CCP devs on this one.


The Skiff is fine as it is. For a line of ships that have no turret/launcher slots, all six of them should be as hard or harder to kill than a tanked procurer currently is. Your fantasy story about some game crushing flaw that exists because people have one ship they favor over another is nothing but a fancy cover for your actual motives.

Profit favors the prepared
Ix Method
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-11-20 23:36:34 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
but that they have become the best ship to mine in and therefore the other mining vessels have become essentially surplus to requirements. This goes against CCP role-based system of ship types. If you can't see this you are blind

This is simply not true. 5 jumps from Jita perhaps but if you go out in to the arse end of highsec you still see AFK Macks and even Hulks. In Nullsec you still see Hulks if there's enough people to throw drones around. You're not wrong in that Skiffs are probably the goto because they feel like safe, decent allrounders with a brutal drone bonus but that's largely a result of player actions, not bad balance.

You seem (?) to be suggesting that good balance = seeing roughly equal numbers of each in space, which with things as they stand is just mental.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-11-20 23:56:11 UTC
We are all aware that the proposal was a (incredibly high and overly complicated) nerf to mining yield and has nothing to with making the ship harder or easier to kill, right?
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#16 - 2014-11-21 01:20:58 UTC
Skiff, Mackinaw and Retriever should all lose a low.

Do the maths. Current yield is too close to Hulk and Coveter to be worth the extra mouse clicks or lack of tank.






There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2014-11-21 01:38:39 UTC
Stop trying to screw with the mining barges in a baked way.
The only way to actually 'fix' them is to give them real fitting allowance & slots. Somewhere around cruiser or BC levels.

Then you of course obsolete two of the variants as it's all about the fittings. (oh look, ready made hulls for an Ore combat cruiser/BC and an Ore Hauler that's not the Orca that can also fit a single strip miner for while they idle in the belts with the real miners)
But that's the only way it comes out as a balanced proposal and allows people to choose what they want, trying to mess around with the baked in stats simply won't work.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-11-21 08:59:46 UTC
So a Mackinaw have 35.000 m³ Ore hold, the Skiff only have 15.000 m³ ore hold. So you have to warp your skiff twice as much as the mackinaw. Seems balanced to me, if your miner in a fleet you have a hauler so why should this not fair.

Seems that somebody just died trying to gang a skiff.

-1
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#19 - 2014-11-21 09:48:56 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Erm. You guys are not fully reading what I have written in this proposal nor the ten pages of comments and other peoples deductions & observations in my previous discussion OP on the C&P board.

Put aside for the moment the fact that I work for small miners to keep one system available for them to mine in and use available in-game mechanics including occasional attacks on ships & infrastructure.

I am purely pointing out that the current configuration of the Skiff is where the Hulk was before the first iteration of ship rebalancing was done by CCP. At that time everyone would look to skill up to a Hulk for ore mining and the Mackinaw for ice mining as those were the best ships for the job. A lot of miners haven't realised it but the Skiff currently has taken the place of both the Hulk & the Mackinaw at the pre rebalancing stage of EVE.

My proposal here atm has nothing to do with difficulty of being able to destroy Skiffs but that they have become the best ship to mine in and therefore the other mining vessels have become essentially surplus to requirements. This goes against CCP role-based system of ship types. If you can't see this you are blind.

Still waiting for a comment from CCP Fozzie or another of the CCP devs on this one.


We're not blind, you are wrong. Mack is the best for solo, skiff the best for tank and useless without hauler, Hulk has the best yield and useless without hauler.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#20 - 2014-11-21 10:22:54 UTC
I can understand where the OP is coming from. The skiff is s little strong in the yield but nothing that needs tweaking or any real amount could ever balance out. The problem is how mining works.
I hulk farmed in Hi-sec and was never ganked. I skiff mine in null. Haven't been killed thanks to s BS level tank.

I still think the issue is in the amount of "mining options.
Frigate and cruisers. We don't have any true miners bigger than that and even those two classes mine differently.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

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