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Intergalactic Summit

 
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It's that time of (once in every 5) year(s) again.
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2014-11-20 00:30:42 UTC
And your argument is that because some people are pissing in the Quafe, you should also **** in the Quafe? No, the answer is to stop pissing in the Quafe and stop drinking the Quafe that people have pissed in.

Now this metaphor has already put me off drinking any fluids whatsoever for the next six hours, so please just take my advice here.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#102 - 2014-11-20 00:58:10 UTC
It amuses me how often Federal born capsuleers are yelled at for commenting in discussions here that apparently don't concern them.

And yet here we are, witnessing a small number of non Federal born capsuleers spouting ignorant opinions. The irony is delicious.


Really now, if you're here to spout the same old rhetoric, go crap on one of the many threads you already do so here, for us this is something that comes around once every five years, and strikes at the very core of our Federation. You may not understand, but no one expects you to, but you've plenty of other, far more regular, matters of discussion you can hijack with your ego preening.

And I'll offer you the same respectful silence on matters I wouldn't be fully understanding of when you come to elect your next leaders.... oh wait.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#103 - 2014-11-20 01:14:11 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
It amuses me how often Federal born capsuleers are yelled at for commenting in discussions here that apparently don't concern them.

And yet here we are, witnessing a small number of non Federal born capsuleers spouting ignorant opinions. The irony is delicious.


Really now, if you're here to spout the same old rhetoric, go crap on one of the many threads you already do so here, for us this is something that comes around once every five years, and strikes at the very core of our Federation. You may not understand, but no one expects you to, but you've plenty of other, far more regular, matters of discussion you can hijack with your ego preening.

And I'll offer you the same respectful silence on matters I wouldn't be fully understanding of when you come to elect your next leaders.... oh wait.

Just wanna point out, that last bit was wholly unnecessary, you just got done chastising people for ego preening. Also, if you want civil discussion about a topic, the best way to get it is not the IGS. I saw this coming from the moment the thread title appeared in the forum.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2014-11-20 01:16:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
And your argument is that because some people are pissing in the Quafe, you should also **** in the Quafe? No, the answer is to stop pissing in the Quafe and stop drinking the Quafe that people have pissed in.

Now this metaphor has already put me off drinking any fluids whatsoever for the next six hours, so please just take my advice here.


It won't stop me from using Quafe as industrial-grade detergent.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#105 - 2014-11-20 01:18:06 UTC
I'm sorry for helping derail the thread, I'll try to ignore her again.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#106 - 2014-11-20 09:25:52 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
It amuses me how often Federal born capsuleers are yelled at for commenting in discussions here that apparently don't concern them.

And yet here we are, witnessing a small number of non Federal born capsuleers spouting ignorant opinions. The irony is delicious.


Really now, if you're here to spout the same old rhetoric, go crap on one of the many threads you already do so here, for us this is something that comes around once every five years, and strikes at the very core of our Federation. You may not understand, but no one expects you to, but you've plenty of other, far more regular, matters of discussion you can hijack with your ego preening.

And I'll offer you the same respectful silence on matters I wouldn't be fully understanding of when you come to elect your next leaders.... oh wait.

Just wanna point out, that last bit was wholly unnecessary, you just got done chastising people for ego preening. Also, if you want civil discussion about a topic, the best way to get it is not the IGS. I saw this coming from the moment the thread title appeared in the forum.


The last part was relative, it pointed out how the Federation is the only one to hold democratic elections, not to lord that fact over with some smug sense of superiority, but to point out exactly why people don't understand. To tell people "You just don't get it" without explanation is dismissive.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#107 - 2014-11-20 21:16:48 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
It amuses me how often Federal born capsuleers are yelled at for commenting in discussions here that apparently don't concern them.

And yet here we are, witnessing a small number of non Federal born capsuleers spouting ignorant opinions. The irony is delicious.


Really now, if you're here to spout the same old rhetoric, go crap on one of the many threads you already do so here, for us this is something that comes around once every five years, and strikes at the very core of our Federation. You may not understand, but no one expects you to, but you've plenty of other, far more regular, matters of discussion you can hijack with your ego preening.

And I'll offer you the same respectful silence on matters I wouldn't be fully understanding of when you come to elect your next leaders.... oh wait.

Just wanna point out, that last bit was wholly unnecessary, you just got done chastising people for ego preening. Also, if you want civil discussion about a topic, the best way to get it is not the IGS. I saw this coming from the moment the thread title appeared in the forum.


The last part was relative, it pointed out how the Federation is the only one to hold democratic elections, not to lord that fact over with some smug sense of superiority, but to point out exactly why people don't understand. To tell people "You just don't get it" without explanation is dismissive.


Relative though it may be, it came across as smug, condescending, and arrogant. Not the best way to prevent the type of behaviour you just criticized. Speak plainly, make your point, and leave try not to upset the tender feelings of people like Kim if you don't want them starting a crap avalanche on your thread.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#108 - 2014-11-20 23:18:27 UTC
It's not even true to say that only the Gallente practice democracy. The State does too,with the difference in how the mandate to vote is given out.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#109 - 2014-11-20 23:25:44 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's not even true to say that only the Gallente practice democracy. The State does too,with the difference in how the mandate to vote is given out.


Democratic elections, as in voting in someone to hold position of public office. Not the practice of holding matters to a vote.

And Claudia, each to their own. We shall simply have to respectfully disagree.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#110 - 2014-11-21 02:03:32 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's not even true to say that only the Gallente practice democracy. The State does too,with the difference in how the mandate to vote is given out.


Democratic elections, as in voting in someone to hold position of public office. Not the practice of holding matters to a vote.

And Claudia, each to their own. We shall simply have to respectfully disagree.


I'm a Kaalakiotaa stockholder and citizen. When the decision was made to oust Heth in favour of Oritsuu-haani, I know that my shares were part of a block of proxy votes that weighed in favour of Oritsuu-haani. I fail to discern a difference between a vote for Megacorporate CEO and what you term the holder of a public office.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#111 - 2014-11-21 03:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's not even true to say that only the Gallente practice democracy. The State does too,with the difference in how the mandate to vote is given out.


Democratic elections, as in voting in someone to hold position of public office. Not the practice of holding matters to a vote.

And Claudia, each to their own. We shall simply have to respectfully disagree.


I'm a Kaalakiotaa stockholder and citizen. When the decision was made to oust Heth in favour of Oritsuu-haani, I know that my shares were part of a block of proxy votes that weighed in favour of Oritsuu-haani. I fail to discern a difference between a vote for Megacorporate CEO and what you term the holder of a public office.


Pieter,

The cornerstone of democratic theory is notion of the "state" only being a facade maintained by the collective will of a vast conglomerate of equal and independent individuals. In order for something to be considered "democratic", rather then merely republican, each participant in the society much have an equal share of power, and also be considered equal under the rule of law. Which itself is only mandated by the will of the majority, too.

The Federation aims for those ideas (well, most of the time) wheras the State does not. The very founding idea of meritocracy is that some peoples voices matter more than others, and that the individual follows the lead of the state, rather then vice versa.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#112 - 2014-11-21 03:25:10 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's not even true to say that only the Gallente practice democracy. The State does too,with the difference in how the mandate to vote is given out.


Democratic elections, as in voting in someone to hold position of public office. Not the practice of holding matters to a vote.

And Claudia, each to their own. We shall simply have to respectfully disagree.


I'm a Kaalakiotaa stockholder and citizen. When the decision was made to oust Heth in favour of Oritsuu-haani, I know that my shares were part of a block of proxy votes that weighed in favour of Oritsuu-haani. I fail to discern a difference between a vote for Megacorporate CEO and what you term the holder of a public office.


Pieter,

The cornerstone of democratic theory is notion of the "state" only being a facade maintained by the collective will of a vast conglomerate of equal and independent individuals. In order for something to be considered "democratic", rather then merely republican, each participant in the society much have an equal share of power, and also be considered equal under the rule of law. Which itself is only mandated by the will of the majority, too.

The Federation aims for those ideas (well, most of the time) wheras the State does not. The very founding idea of meritocracy is that some peoples voices matter more than others, and that the individual follows the lead of the state, rather then vice versa.


Right. I thought democracy just meant voting for things. I mean, it's only very recently in the Federation that it's worked the way you describe. At one point it was just Lords. Then it was just wealthy land owning men. Then just men. Even now, only men and women who can prove certain facts about their birth and age qualify.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#113 - 2014-11-21 03:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Right. I thought democracy just meant voting for things. I mean, it's only very recently in the Federation that it's worked the way you describe. At one point it was just Lords. Then it was just wealthy land owning men. Then just men. Even now, only men and women who can prove certain facts about their birth and age qualify.


Technically, you're talking about the united Gallentean republics on their homeworld, Pieter, not the Federation itself. It's had universal sufferage for adults ever since the charter was signed.

And now, I shall gaze into my crystal ball and use my incredible precognitive abilities to determine what you and every other megacorporate citizen reading is thinking/about to say.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There's a difference?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#114 - 2014-11-21 04:50:53 UTC
Th-th-that's uncanny!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#115 - 2014-11-21 09:41:46 UTC
Even the Federation isn't strictly democratic. You vote for men and women to represent you and make the decisions in your place rather than having the entire population of the Federation voting on every single issue themselves.

To go with what you said earlier, power is not shared equally. While everyone on the Federation (ostensibly) has equal power to elect officials, when it comes to setting policy directly, those elected officials hold vastly increased power.

A purely democratic society is unfeasible at that scale. As time is limited, if every single citizen were responsible for every single decision no actual work would get done since any entity consisting of that many people has so many issues that need decided. Even small organizations have this issue; it's the reason managers and administrators exist, and politicians could be seen as the managers and administrators of the government.

Besides, I have often heard the complaint that politicians never get anything done. It stands to reason then, that if EVERYONE in the Federation were a politician, the Federation would collapse inside a week. (note: that is a joke)

Also, isn't the Republic also a representative government of some sort?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-11-21 10:22:22 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Even the Federation isn't strictly democratic. You vote for men and women to represent you and make the decisions in your place rather than having the entire population of the Federation voting on every single issue themselves.

To go with what you said earlier, power is not shared equally. While everyone on the Federation (ostensibly) has equal power to elect officials, when it comes to setting policy directly, those elected officials hold vastly increased power.

A purely democratic society is unfeasible at that scale. As time is limited, if every single citizen were responsible for every single decision no actual work would get done since any entity consisting of that many people has so many issues that need decided. Even small organizations have this issue; it's the reason managers and administrators exist, and politicians could be seen as the managers and administrators of the government.

Besides, I have often heard the complaint that politicians never get anything done. It stands to reason then, that if EVERYONE in the Federation were a politician, the Federation would collapse inside a week. (note: that is a joke)

Also, isn't the Republic also a representative government of some sort?


It is, except the power belongs to the tribal leaders who are, well, not really voted into position. Usually there's an internal discussion going on about who is best suited for the position. Normally, the ones who get into the selection process usually have some white in their hair, or has some wrinkles under the eyes. As such, not democratic.

It used to be democratic, but well, you know how that went.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#117 - 2014-11-21 10:27:08 UTC
Oh right. I forgot about Shakor's power grab. I admit I don't follow Republic activities that much, nor am I that well versed in their politics and customs.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#118 - 2014-11-21 10:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Even the Federation isn't strictly democratic. You vote for men and women to represent you and make the decisions in your place rather than having the entire population of the Federation voting on every single issue themselves.

To go with what you said earlier, power is not shared equally. While everyone on the Federation (ostensibly) has equal power to elect officials, when it comes to setting policy directly, those elected officials hold vastly increased power.

A purely democratic society is unfeasible at that scale. As time is limited, if every single citizen were responsible for every single decision no actual work would get done since any entity consisting of that many people has so many issues that need decided. Even small organizations have this issue; it's the reason managers and administrators exist, and politicians could be seen as the managers and administrators of the government.

Besides, I have often heard the complaint that politicians never get anything done. It stands to reason then, that if EVERYONE in the Federation were a politician, the Federation would collapse inside a week. (note: that is a joke)

Also, isn't the Republic also a representative government of some sort?


Mister Kraid,

You've basically just described the reasoning behind representative democracy, there. The idea is that, in theory, everyone still holds equal power, but because exercising that directly would slow society down to a crawl, people instead elect individuals with similar mindsets to make their decisions for them - Advocates, so to speak. That's what appointing a Senator is supposed to be: A deference of responsibility.

Of course, you can only put so many tiers between your decisions and the decisions that actually affect the country before people start becoming a bit cynical about the whole thing, which is why the Federation suffers with such low turnouts.

And being a representative government doesn't make it a democracy, if the franchise is not equal. It just makes it a republic. ...Which is presumably why the Republic is still called that.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#119 - 2014-11-21 14:40:37 UTC
I'm still having difficulty spotting the difference between that and me assigning my shares to a proxy voting bloc, because I just don't ha e the time or education to understand every little issue that gets voted on in stockholder meetings.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#120 - 2014-11-22 06:18:37 UTC
And so the great contest of ideals commences.

I would like to express my deep gratitude to President Jacus Roden for his wise, steadfast and determined leadership. People of such vision are rare and our need remains great.

I have faith that as always the right person will come. That our Federal Union will change, will grow, and will in so doing, become stronger.

I encourage every citizen of our Federal Union to exercise their civic right. It is as a citizen your greatest and most sacred responsibility.

Weigh carefully your choice.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."