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armor vs shield

Author
Katarr Ne'asirr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-11-19 22:18:50 UTC
Love the game but this thing kind of buggs me guys.
I love how amarr ships look so i choosed them. I love every my ship :).
Thing is that i didint knew i choosed my role in fleets by doing so. Thought all ships can choose to tank or dps and it looks like they dont.
Armor ships will never be as good dps as shield ships and shield ships will not be as good tanks as armor ships.
Theres no point in not playing your role and be not effective so therefore....i MUST be a tank.
That buggs me. The word "must". Pls dont say "you can but you wont be as good" ...couse when i wont be as good then the whole point of dps build is ...well just stiupid(that has been put in words like "not effective").

I love the game but what i would like to have is a choice witch i dont have:(.

Gefen Orion
Icebox Industries
#2 - 2014-11-19 22:36:42 UTC
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
Love the game but this thing kind of buggs me guys.
I love how amarr ships look so i choosed them. I love every my ship :).
Thing is that i didint knew i choosed my role in fleets by doing so. Thought all ships can choose to tank or dps and it looks like they dont.
Armor ships will never be as good dps as shield ships and shield ships will not be as good tanks as armor ships.
Theres no point in not playing your role and be not effective so therefore....i MUST be a tank.
That buggs me. The word "must". Pls dont say "you can but you wont be as good" ...couse when i wont be as good then the whole point of dps build is ...well just stiupid(that has been put in words like "not effective").

I love the game but what i would like to have is a choice witch i dont have:(.



You will learn eventually that in this game, you are not restricted to anything. You can do everything. It just takes time and will greatly depend on your priorities. 1st year toons usually focused on bringing up the core skills + a chosen weapon platform + a chosen defensive platform. Once you mastered that, you can choose to branch out to another set of specialized skills.

Like for example, as you have chosen amarr as your base racial toon, you can go the traditional route of lasers and armor tank. However, nothing is stopping you from focus training to missiles and shield tank immediately after you are born in EVE. Race is not tied to what ships you can fly. Race is just for aesthetics and to put new players into a bit of perspective as the leaning curve in eve is very, very steep.

Katarr Ne'asirr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-11-19 22:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Katarr Ne'asirr
Gefen Orion wrote:
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
Love the game but this thing kind of buggs me guys.
I love how amarr ships look so i choosed them. I love every my ship :).
Thing is that i didint knew i choosed my role in fleets by doing so. Thought all ships can choose to tank or dps and it looks like they dont.
Armor ships will never be as good dps as shield ships and shield ships will not be as good tanks as armor ships.
Theres no point in not playing your role and be not effective so therefore....i MUST be a tank.
That buggs me. The word "must". Pls dont say "you can but you wont be as good" ...couse when i wont be as good then the whole point of dps build is ...well just stiupid(that has been put in words like "not effective").

I love the game but what i would like to have is a choice witch i dont have:(.



You will learn eventually that in this game, you are not restricted to anything. You can do everything. It just takes time and will greatly depend on your priorities. 1st year toons usually focused on bringing up the core skills + a chosen weapon platform + a chosen defensive platform. Once you mastered that, you can choose to branch out to another set of specialized skills.

Like for example, as you have chosen amarr as your base racial toon, you can go the traditional route of lasers and armor tank. However, nothing is stopping you from focus training to missiles and shield tank immediately after you are born in EVE. Race is not tied to what ships you can fly. Race is just for aesthetics and to put new players into a bit of perspective as the leaning curve in eve is very, very steep.



so the anwser tells "well sux for you , train shield if you want dps"....i agree ;/
if someoen dosent agree pls do find me a armor incursion fleet with same tankyness and dps as shield fleets please =). I would appriciate it.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2014-11-19 23:04:30 UTC
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
so the anwser tells "well sux for you , train shield if you want dps"....i agree ;/
if someoen dosent agree pls do find me a armor incursion fleet with same tankyness and dps as shield fleets please =). I would appriciate it.


I was about to say that a lot depends on context -- but if the context is incursions, well, so be it. Yes, I do believe that most of the top incursion fleets are shields. Also obsessed with ponies last I checked.

However, just get a damn Nightmare. Yes, they shield tank, but they're great for the job, use lasers, and depend on your Amarr skillset. So yeah. Just go for it.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#5 - 2014-11-20 00:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
so the anwser tells "well sux for you , train shield if you want dps"....i agree ;/
if someoen dosent agree pls do find me a armor incursion fleet with same tankyness and dps as shield fleets please =). I would appriciate it.

Just from the sound of it... your problem is not your skills (at least... not necessarily).

Armor and shield ships don't work together because of their different needs. Armor ships need Guardians and Onerios (types of "healer" ships) for repairs... shield ships need Basilisks and Scimitars.

Armor ships need different types of warfare links compared to shield ships.

You are a victim of the "meta"... in other words, you are being excluded by players because you style/skills/preferences does not conform to what other people want (which is shield tanks and DPS).
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-11-20 00:55:39 UTC
What armor ships may lack in raw DPS they tend to make up for with better application, projection, and more EWAR options.

Shield ship of course tend to be faster, more agile, and their reps land sooner.

Neither is really better than the other. They just have different strengths and weaknesses that lend each one to different play styles.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-11-20 01:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
hmm High DPS armor ships

Ishtar
Oman not exactly high DPS, but autocannons wish they could project like pulse lasers, so really it's doing excellent DPS in the range you want to use the ship
any armor tanked blaster boat

and really armor tanking come with many advantages over shield tanks.

lower sig
stronger buffer

open mids which grants

cap boosters = nuet resistance
E-war few shield tanks can give up a mid for a sebo, TP, TD, T,C damp or what have you
can dual prop WITH FULL TACKLE
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-11-20 09:37:36 UTC
CCP strives to make every ship/race interesting. Balancing is hard but, despite the occasional player whining, IMHO they're doing overall an awesome job in giving people loads of viable options.

To achieve that, they need to include some degree of specialization, otherwise all ships/races would be quite similar and rather boring.

So you have to choose; either

1) Stick to a single race, and learn to maximize its strengths and live with its weaknesses

2) View ships/races as 'tools for a job', eventually train them all, fly what is needed based on the job at hand


My personal whine is the level V requirements for Tech 2 ships and Tech 2 weaponry, that make option 2) quite painful once you get to cruiser level. It takes almost a month for each racial cruiser skill plus a month for each medium weapon skill... Sad

Nevertheless, it's quite easy to cross-train at frigate level, and it's useful to fly all the different races (/weapons) to learn their strengths and weaknesses. Even if you prefer one race, it's useful to know from experience what you'll be up against in PVP.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tuscor
13.
Enigma Project
#9 - 2014-11-20 10:55:49 UTC
Proteus is pretty good armour dps
Ishtar puts out some insane dps

As has been said above, many armour ships will APPLY more dps than shield due to the ability to fit EWAR like webbifiers, Target Painters etc in their spare midslots.

There were once armour specific incursion fleets - maybe try to get in with those guys.

T
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#10 - 2014-11-20 11:00:14 UTC
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
Love the game but this thing kind of buggs me guys.
I love how amarr ships look so i choosed them. I love every my ship :).
Thing is that i didint knew i choosed my role in fleets by doing so. Thought all ships can choose to tank or dps and it looks like they dont.
Armor ships will never be as good dps as shield ships and shield ships will not be as good tanks as armor ships.
Theres no point in not playing your role and be not effective so therefore....i MUST be a tank.
That buggs me. The word "must". Pls dont say "you can but you wont be as good" ...couse when i wont be as good then the whole point of dps build is ...well just stiupid(that has been put in words like "not effective").

I love the game but what i would like to have is a choice witch i dont have:(.



The prevailing logic that you can't shield tank Amarr ships or that armor ships can't be fast and do good DPS has been wrong for some time, you just have to be a little more creative with those low slots, just because there is a lot of them doesn't mean you have to fill them with plates and EANMs.
Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#11 - 2014-11-20 14:04:46 UTC
There are indeed some Amarr ships which work nicely with shield tank, especially those which are drone based... just start thinking out of the box.

Furthermore, don't forget the Succubus and its big brothers... great laser damage, good shield tank and good speed with bonused afterburner... they are a lot of fun.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-11-20 14:15:20 UTC
Tuscor wrote:
There were once armour specific incursion fleets - maybe try to get in with those guys.

There still are. http://www.tdf-theditanianfleet.org/

I run incursions with them as an armor logi from time to time.
Aeryn Maricadie
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#13 - 2014-11-22 03:24:12 UTC
In PvE Shield is better because you don't need to worry about EWAR, but in PvP they are about the same because you need to have some mid slots for EWAR. Shield ships do make the best bait tanks though.
Katarr Ne'asirr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-11-22 09:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Katarr Ne'asirr
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
What armor ships may lack in raw DPS they tend to make up for with better application, projection, and more EWAR options.

Shield ship of course tend to be faster, more agile, and their reps land sooner.

Neither is really better than the other. They just have different strengths and weaknesses that lend each one to different play styles.


I agree with all of you. Each ship has its advatage and disadvantage.
Thats the point of this thread.
So you say couse CCP wants to make ships interesting ....i was a new player when i took amarr ships and had no clue about advantage/disadvantage. I took them couse i like the way they look , thats it.
CCP wants the game to be interesting? Hmm add some skills maybe to manipulate your ship desing that instead of training ships from diffrent race you could manipulate ships desing of your own race. That sounds like an idea that needs thinking.
Couse if CCP want ships to be interesting think about what Gully Alex Foyle wrote , i have ships that have their advantages , when il get bored with them and i still like how my ships look(be the amarr guy) and i dont have options to go for something alse then the game still will be boring.
example : player likes look of ships so he trains them, dosent like ewar , likes dps and tank roles.
In this case his ship is best at tank so ....the choices go down and down.
An interesting game is a game that has choices.Many ship builds(like t3 , i love those ships !! ). Think about it and maybe do something about it. I can come up with ideas if needed.
Arronicus
Caldari Navy Reconnaissance
#15 - 2014-11-22 12:35:32 UTC
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
Gefen Orion wrote:
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
Love the game but this thing kind of buggs me guys.
I love how amarr ships look so i choosed them. I love every my ship :).
Thing is that i didint knew i choosed my role in fleets by doing so. Thought all ships can choose to tank or dps and it looks like they dont.
Armor ships will never be as good dps as shield ships and shield ships will not be as good tanks as armor ships.
Theres no point in not playing your role and be not effective so therefore....i MUST be a tank.
That buggs me. The word "must". Pls dont say "you can but you wont be as good" ...couse when i wont be as good then the whole point of dps build is ...well just stiupid(that has been put in words like "not effective").

I love the game but what i would like to have is a choice witch i dont have:(.



You will learn eventually that in this game, you are not restricted to anything. You can do everything. It just takes time and will greatly depend on your priorities. 1st year toons usually focused on bringing up the core skills + a chosen weapon platform + a chosen defensive platform. Once you mastered that, you can choose to branch out to another set of specialized skills.

Like for example, as you have chosen amarr as your base racial toon, you can go the traditional route of lasers and armor tank. However, nothing is stopping you from focus training to missiles and shield tank immediately after you are born in EVE. Race is not tied to what ships you can fly. Race is just for aesthetics and to put new players into a bit of perspective as the leaning curve in eve is very, very steep.



so the anwser tells "well sux for you , train shield if you want dps"....i agree ;/
if someoen dosent agree pls do find me a armor incursion fleet with same tankyness and dps as shield fleets please =). I would appriciate it.


Shiny Paladin fleet > any shield fleet for vanguards. While the dps itself isn't that spectacular, the combination of long damage projection range, and no need for any logi in the fleet is a valuable combination, enabling the fleet to be less reliant on a few parties, and be able to field more damage ships.
Altair Taurus
#16 - 2014-11-23 23:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Well, I'd like to clarify one issue - armor tank vs shield tank numbers! More precisely if, say, 500 DPS shield tank is equal to 500 DPS armor tank regarding game mechanics?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2014-11-23 23:57:40 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Well, I'd like to clarify one issue - armor tank vs shield tank numbers! More precisely if, say, 500 DPS shield tank is equal to 500 DPS armor tank regarding game mechanics?


Tank is hard to really generalize at all but if we must -- yes, they're about the same.

Often there will be different resist holes in armor versus shield and so one may be favored over the other in a particular engagement but things really do wash out on that front. The only real difference is that you have to turn on your armor rep sooner than the shield booster since the former repair at the end of the cycle and the latter the beginning.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2014-11-24 00:04:48 UTC
Katarr Ne'asirr wrote:
example : player likes look of ships so he trains them, dosent like ewar , likes dps and tank roles.
In this case his ship is best at tank so ....the choices go down and down.
An interesting game is a game that has choices.Many ship builds(like t3 , i love those ships !! ). Think about it and maybe do something about it. I can come up with ideas if needed.


So... I'm really going to have to encourage you to spend more time in the game before making a judgement like this. Things aren't nearly as cut and dry as you want to make it out. Not only do hulls have different valid fits for different situations, the valid fit in one situation is rarely the best in all (or even really adequate; forget "the best").

However, ships are all exactly as constrained by performance as we allow them to be. T3s in this case are no exception. There are a truly finite number of T3 fits out there and a glut of subsystems that never get used. Because they're expensive, people rarely fit them outside of the box and the seeming array of choices more or less disappears. On the flip side, seemingly single-purpose hulls get experimental and lateral all the time -- take the battle Helios for instance.

This game is all about matching the ship to the fit to the situation. Coming out and stating that Amarr ships aren't best for one thing is a dramatic oversimplification. However, giving people too much choice actually cuts down on the number of good choices as everything drives towards the same few optimal ships and fits. Eve strikes this balance much better than you're giving credit for.
Iyokus Patrouette
Noir.
The Network.
#19 - 2014-11-24 03:05:48 UTC
From what i have read it looks like you're looking at the ships and thinking in terms of the Holy Trinity (That is, Tank, Healer and DPS) If that is so you really need to stop thinking in that manner there could be an argument of each ship being it's own Tank, Healer and DPS but that might confuse the situation so i'll ignore it for now.

Each Factions ships have variants that can do huge dps, or fit a huge tank, they all have their sniping options and their brawling options. Just because you like Amarr and want to fly them doesn't exclude you from anything except maybe some specific doctrines designed to do one particular thing in large numbers.

For mostly every other thing you can do in eve there is an socially acceptable Amarr ship for the job. except maybe the Nestor.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#20 - 2014-11-24 08:23:10 UTC
Its not likes it hard to train Shield Tanking, Maybe 1-2 months for more than acceptable. Its not like you need the resist skills at all, Tactical manipulation only needs lvl4 , the active/regen skills are also not needed for a lot of fits (see buffer inc fleets).

If you already have large lasers then you are pretty much set to flight a Nightmare.

PS, also Incursions are a very small part of Eve. Amarr/armor ships are very popular in PVP. Low sec is practically ruled by Archons, Prots, Legions, Napocs ect.
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