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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2161 - 2014-11-19 21:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Would of, could of, should of. Argument doesn't fly here, it is about the here and now. Jump distance is not the issue. SOV is, fix that first. Then revisit capitals if needed.


Fix sov? If you think this is a threadnaught . . .

/me grins

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2162 - 2014-11-19 21:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Easthir Ravin
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2163 - 2014-11-19 21:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Would of, could of, should of. Argument doesn't fly here, it is about the here and now. Jump distance is not the issue. SOV is, fix that first. Then revisit capitals if needed.

I'm probably one of the first guys who talked loudly about how CCP needed to be fixed, and I predicted the situation we're in (although I didn't expect it to get as severe as it is now), so you don't need to tell me about how sov needs to be fixed.

I was surprised myself at them choosing to nerf power projection, but I like the way the changes are playing out with how f.ex lowsec seems to become more capital friendly (now that f.ex PL can't derp all over every solo dread they find), and the fact CCP were willing to do something as drastic as they did, to capitals, gives me hope they'll do an equally drastic job with the sov system as well.

Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."

Not really. Sounds like it was a change which needed to be implemented, and you see that in the way f.ex lowsec seems to be changing in behavior, and for the better.

Now, if they do the same kind of job with the sov system, then things might get pretty interesting in future.
Niskin
League of the Lost
#2164 - 2014-11-19 21:53:25 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."


No, because that isn't what happened. I will agree that there is some ambiguity in how the mechanic works and that should be cleared up, but it's a solid mechanic that appears to be doing what it was intended to do. If they were trying to distract you from some other bad mechanic, like how sov works, then they wouldn't be in the middle of changing how sov works. There is no conspiracy, there is no cover up. Long distance travel changes were implemented to limit long distance travel. Sov changes will be implement to change how sov works. And as Mike pointed out, the threadnaught for that will blot out the sun. I mean with this thread and the one that preceded it we are well over 500 pages on this.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2165 - 2014-11-19 21:57:41 UTC
While I do not disagree with your point, Lord TGR. I think it is a dangerous road when we start talking about what an entity should and should not be able to do within the rules of the game. It starts looking less like a sandbox and more like, "lets make everything fair land-box." A sandbox should allow for the ability to take over the conquerable systems, hell it should encourage it, and it should encourage everyone else to try and thwart those efforts. I mean did I need a colorful compass around my capacitor? How much dev time did that little gem take up?

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2166 - 2014-11-19 22:41:03 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."

I could argue that backwards as well. I believe that capitals had an unneeded massive boost/advantage from the get-go. They should never have gotten as powerful as they did. They should never had as much mobility as they had. It wasn't such a big issue when they were introduced because there was a time constraint on how quickly anyone could actually abuse it fully. It's become glaringly apparent in the last couple years and this fix brings them down to a more reasonable spot. They still have many major advantages over their sub-capital components and weaknesses as well.

People need to stop thinking of jump drives as the only way to move a capital, and draw in the idea that every single person in a group or coalition needs to be in every place at once. Pick a place or split your labor. The changes are going to require pilots to adapt to a new mindset and implement different policies and procedures.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2167 - 2014-11-19 23:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Seems someone was too lenient and used to the easiness of former 0.0


Welcome back to a ruthless game.

Biggest LOL ever! ROFL! Ruthless my foot. You really want to talk about lenient and easy and ruthless?

Tell that to the hotdrops. Nothing ruthless about Eve for them. 20-100 vs a lone ratter is the very definition of easiness and risk-free.

Eve is still far too lenient and easy for the gankers. Nothing has changed about that with Phoebe. Nothing to see here. Move along.

And more Christmas gifts for the gankers are on the way!!! Ho ho ho! Merry Christmas! Stay tuned folks for the Eve classic hit, "Living in a Gankers Paradise," "What's POS Got to Do With It?", "BLOPS, the Magic Dragon," "I've been Working on My Jump Drive, All My Live Long Day" and many many more. That is, stayed tuned until your subs run out and you move along folks, nothing to see here.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2168 - 2014-11-20 00:19:02 UTC
Anything that takes over 200+ days to get into should be the baddest freaking thing on the block....over powered my behind...now you can be stopped by a small gang of three week olds...gates...dumb place for a capital ship.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2169 - 2014-11-20 00:54:22 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
While I do not disagree with your point, Lord TGR. I think it is a dangerous road when we start talking about what an entity should and should not be able to do within the rules of the game. It starts looking less like a sandbox and more like, "lets make everything fair land-box."

Actually, no, what an entity should and should not be able to do is exactly what we need to be talking about. Should I be able to take my entire cap fleet from one end of the universe to the other? Some might say yes, but I say no, because when you start to limit what someone can do, they have to start making more interesting choices, and you start to open up possibilities for other players to take advantage of the choices one group of players make opening up other possibilities of things to do.

Easthir Ravin wrote:
A sandbox should allow for the ability to take over the conquerable systems, hell it should encourage it, and it should encourage everyone else to try and thwart those efforts.

None of the changes to jumpdrives stop them from doing exactly this. They just limit what they can do before they've overextended themselves.

You'll probably see that BL and NCdot are going to continue to try to get us to cede space by hitting us in two places at once, but as long as we do what we've done today, it won't help then one whit, and in fact you could argue that the changes might even be in BL/NCdot's favor in some respects, since if they decided to bring caps and we didn't, we would be unable to bring ours down from the north in time to do anything about NCdot's caps.

Not that this matters when NCdot doesn't even show up, but there you go.
Easthir Ravin wrote:
I mean did I need a colorful compass around my capacitor? How much dev time did that little gem take up?

Not sure what this has to do with it, but I think you'll find that it should take vastly less time and effort than it'll take to redo the entire sov system, because that likely touches a metric fucktonne of subsystems etc, all which need to be coordinated between each subsystem maintainer(s), project manager, etc.

Easthir Ravin wrote:
Anything that takes over 200+ days to get into should be the baddest freaking thing on the block....over powered my behind...now you can be stopped by a small gang of three week olds...gates...dumb place for a capital ship.

You do realize that this is a game of diminishing returns, right? Just because something's bigger and more expensive, doesn't mean it should own bones. We had that back in the day with titans, where in the end you could wipe out a whole grid of not just subcaps, but caps as well. The instant AOE DD was removed, the number of subcap tactics and fleet comps etc exploded, and the game got a lot more interesting as a result. And now they've done the same with force projection so you have to actually choose what to defend.

They'll essentially speaking nerf force projection a second time if they actually do a good job with the sov system, but that still just affects nullsec, the force projection changes affect more than just sov nullsec, it also affects lowsec, and seemingly for the better. See the link I gave to Andy Landen for an example.

Now tell me that story isn't more interesting to read about than what it would look like pre-phoebe.

Andy Landen wrote:
Biggest LOL ever! ROFL! Ruthless my foot. You really want to talk about lenient and easy and ruthless?

Tell that to the hotdrops. Nothing ruthless about Eve for them. 20-100 vs a lone ratter is the very definition of easiness and risk-free.

Eve is still far too lenient and easy for the gankers. Nothing has changed about that with Phoebe. Nothing to see here. Move along.

And more Christmas gifts for the gankers are on the way!!! Ho ho ho! Merry Christmas! Stay tuned folks for the Eve classic hit, "Living in a Gankers Paradise," "What's POS Got to Do With It?", "BLOPS, the Magic Dragon," "I've been Working on My Jump Drive, All My Live Long Day" and many many more. That is, stayed tuned until your subs run out and you move along folks, nothing to see here.

Hotdrops are risk free until it's a trap. And actually, it has changed with phoebe. For one, they can't kill and jump out again as soon as their cap is ok, so there's more of a response time, and they can't do as many ganks per day as they could pre-phoebe, etc.

And in case you missed it, it seems like lowsec are loving the changes: http://www.themittani.com/news/rise-lowsec-capital-fleet

It looks to me like both the fatigue AND the range adjustments played a vital role in how the whole engagement ended. They chose to go for the wyvern kill, and as such ended up trading a few other carriers etc in exchange, which is a much more interesting tale than one which would've invariably ended with "and then some supercap-heavy entity cynoed in their supers fleet and ganked everyone".
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2170 - 2014-11-20 01:23:51 UTC
Lord TGR, your points are valid. I just don't like backwards development. Technology should never go backward. This sets bad precedents.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2171 - 2014-11-20 01:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
The alternative is power creep, or numbers inflation. The 5LY range opens up the game to tactical maneuvering and blocking which the old 14LY (or whatever it was, I can't be arsed to look it up) limit did, because it would just circumvent a majority of the chokepoints the 5LY range has. On the other hand, the fact you can now take gates with capitals mean cynojammers are less powerful than they were before, so while they're still hella useful in controlling where/how the enemy gets in there, it's not as powerful.

One alternative to reducing the range to 5LY is to modify the eve universe itself and expand it by around 200%. You'd end up with the same end result, i.e. the map actually has chokepoints again, but you'd have to go through each and every system in eve and modify their coordinates etc, which means a vastly higher chance for fuckups. Changing the range to 5LY is a much less error prone operation, as it involves changing an attribute and a range calculation algorithm, and that's it.

As for fatigue, I can't think of an alternative mechanism offhand which has the same general effect while minimizing the impact on the actual gameplay experience. At this point I'm sure Andy Landen'll pipe up with his idea of making travel in and of itself take time, the problem with his proposal is that instead of having "instant travel" over 5LY and the ability to do things, you would have to initiate travel and then wait x minutes/hours to actually arrive, and in the meantime you're invulnerable and not interceptable, so absolutely nothing at all happens, etc.

Personally I've done a few fleets now with titan bridges being used etc, and to be honest I've yet to find a single time where it actually impacts me directly because I just do what the FC tells me to do, I don't have to think about where gate X is going, or whether my fatigue'll be a hindrence. This is mostly because we spend more time waiting for f.ex caps to do their thing with a structure than the actual fatigue lasts, or we'll travel through a few system and wait for the caps to do their thing in each system, to the point where I am at 0 minutes fatigue by the time I'm taking my next bridge.

And the main difference between alternatives like reducing the jumprange and increasing the distance between systems, is that reducing the range is something which is seen as "a negative", because it's instantly quantifiable and something which can be taken as a negative thing against them, whereas increasing the distance between solar systemsisn't (even if it strictly speaking probably won't be seen as a negative thing to the same extent, as the changes aren't directly to someone's toy. It just happens to affect how long that toy can go from home, which is a vastly different kettle of fish.

Doesn't make sense if you look at the whole thing from a logical standpoint, but most players look at it from an emotional standpoint.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2172 - 2014-11-20 02:19:18 UTC
Meh...it's a moot point, its done, we deal with it and we will still have all the same issues we had before. Now we have the same issues with a little less capability. Again...seems counter intuitive and a step backwards.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2173 - 2014-11-20 02:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Lord TGR wrote:

Hotdrops are risk free until it's a trap.

I suppose you have statistics to show how often that occurs. Anything more frequent than almost never? And when your numbers are 50+ and the other side cannot tell how many more are behind that cyno, you tell me who wants to gamble an expensive bait ship? It happens, but rarely.

Lord TGR wrote:

And actually, it has changed with phoebe. For one, they can't kill and jump out again as soon as their cap is ok, so there's more of a response time, and they can't do as many ganks per day as they could pre-phoebe, etc.

So remind us then, how long they have to wait before getting out and how much ISK they have to risk on the field to get that bait ship? I'll give you a hint, one of the numbers is zero and the other one is near zero. Right, BLOPS can hotdrop at insane ranges AND have little to no fatigue penalty or need to care about the fatigue penalty. Lovely move there CCP. Niskin care to show us the numbers for BLOPs? and put them next to the cap numbers, maybe?

Pretty sure the ganks per day have not changed. By the time Titan hotdrop subcaps have burned back, I'm pretty sure the fatigue is gone as well. You want to think Phoebe is a better world, but it is only more complicated, gimped caps, and a little more regional.

Lord TGR wrote:

And in case you missed it, it seems like lowsec are loving the changes: http://www.themittani.com/news/rise-lowsec-capital-fleet


The changes seem to be designed for low sec and NPC null, so of course they love it. Close to HS. Close to sov-safe stations. No bubbles, for LS. Small movement needs. When movement is shafted, all those four factors create a haven for the 1st great capital nerf. And wh space is like, whatever, the nerfs don't affect us.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2174 - 2014-11-20 03:18:34 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Right, BLOPS can hotdrop at insane ranges AND have little to no fatigue penalty or need to care about the fatigue penalty.

No. 50% reduction is not little to none. its 30mins instead of 60 if jumping 5LY. Its around 40-50mins for jumping full 8LY. its a helpful bonus for sure, but not the massive one you are portraying it to be.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2175 - 2014-11-20 09:04:35 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
If you think this is a threadnaught . . .
Nope, with just over a hundred pages this is just one of the larger threads. If it would be 250+ it would become in the neighbourhood of the real monsters. At 500+ we're talking......

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2176 - 2014-11-20 09:24:58 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
If you think this is a threadnaught . . .
Nope, with just over a hundred pages this is just one of the larger threads. If it would be 250+ it would become in the neighbourhood of the real monsters. At 500+ we're talking......

Somebody say Incarna?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2177 - 2014-11-20 09:33:14 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."



no.. I do not agree. It is the best way after the geenie is out of the bottle. Non artificially limiting solutions might have worked if CCP had moved like 6 years ago, before people got used the whole universe is my backyard.

Now is too late, and there is no other option but a brutal an crute chopping of things.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2178 - 2014-11-20 09:36:18 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
I suppose you have statistics to show how often that occurs. Anything more frequent than almost never? And when your numbers are 50+ and the other side cannot tell how many more are behind that cyno, you tell me who wants to gamble an expensive bait ship? It happens, but rarely.

I don't see what statistics have to do with it. Just because people are cowards, doesn't make it an unviable tactic, especially now that it's unlikely to escalate to become the next Asakai in 0 seconds flat.

Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

And actually, it has changed with phoebe. For one, they can't kill and jump out again as soon as their cap is ok, so there's more of a response time, and they can't do as many ganks per day as they could pre-phoebe, etc.

So remind us then, how long they have to wait before getting out and how much ISK they have to risk on the field to get that bait ship? I'll give you a hint, one of the numbers is zero and the other one is near zero. Right, BLOPS can hotdrop at insane ranges AND have little to no fatigue penalty or need to care about the fatigue penalty. Lovely move there CCP. Niskin care to show us the numbers for BLOPs? and put them next to the cap numbers, maybe?

Pretty certain blops are mainly a threat to solo ratters. Again, easily counterable, and not a cause for gigantic 4k sub-10% tidi fights that last for hours, which is the primary aim of this fix. I don't see ratter ganking as a huge problem at this point. Maybe sometime down the road if nullsec is ever supposed to be self-sustaining to a larger degree than is the case now, but at that point I'd expect most systems to have more people out and about than is the case today, probably to the point where only the terminally dumb are gankable without repercussions.

Andy Landen wrote:
Pretty sure the ganks per day have not changed. By the time Titan hotdrop subcaps have burned back, I'm pretty sure the fatigue is gone as well. You want to think Phoebe is a better world, but it is only more complicated, gimped caps, and a little more regional.

Last I checked, the number of blops ganks in deklein was very low. Not that it matters, blops would be ganking just as often if they had 0% reduction in fatigue and 5LY, it would just be slightly more work for them to actually get there than it currently is. It's inconsequential though, since once they get somewhere, which doesn't take that much work for a dedicated blops gang, they can just sit in that constellation and gank when the mood takes them, just like today. Why? Because when they've ganked someone, they more or less have to wait for a while because the locals be restless yo.

And you're right it's a more complicated world, and there are some new constraints put on not just caps but on every form of travel which isn't a WH or a gate. And I think the fact the eve universe is more local than it was before, is just a good thing. Or would you rather have a dumbed down EVE?

Andy Landen wrote:
The changes seem to be designed for low sec and NPC null, so of course they love it. Close to HS. Close to sov-safe stations. No bubbles, for LS. Small movement needs. When movement is shafted, all those four factors create a haven for the 1st great capital nerf. And wh space is like, whatever, the nerfs don't affect us.

It's not just lowsec and NPC null this works for, it works for sov null as well, but I'd say that the fact lowsec is having a cap resurgence because not every cap escalation is counterdropped by an unaffiliated 3rd party anymore.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2179 - 2014-11-20 09:37:20 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
So remind us then, how long they have to wait before getting out and how much ISK they have to risk on the field to get that bait ship? I'll give you a hint, one of the numbers is zero and the other one is near zero. Right, BLOPS can hotdrop at insane ranges AND have little to no fatigue penalty or need to care about the fatigue penalty. Lovely move there CCP. Niskin care to show us the numbers for BLOPs? and put them next to the cap numbers, maybe?

.



It helps a lot on the ideas and discussion forum, when people refrain from posting blatant lies or pure ignorance filled remarks.

Zero is no where near those numbers. Black ops still need to wait more than half an hour to jump again. REad their bonus again, then read the mechanics again. Hint, there are two key concept words that you are treating as the same, but they are NOT and the bonus is to ONE not the other.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2180 - 2014-11-20 09:40:04 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Could we at least agree on the fact that reducing a capability and creating an artificial and ambiguous increase in mobility time is just a bad way to band-aid other terrible mechanics?

I mean I can see the development session going something like this: "I know, lets give them something so horrendous, that it completely takes the spotlight away from the fact that we don't know how to fix this other equally if not slightly less steamy pile of poo."



no.. I do not agree. It is the best way after the geenie is out of the bottle. Non artificially limiting solutions might have worked if CCP had moved like 6 years ago, before people got used the whole universe is my backyard.

Now is too late, and there is no other option but a brutal an crute chopping of things.

I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be thought of as "artificially limiting solutions" if things had been added in the state they currently are in back when EVE was first made, it would just be "the way things are".