Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So I was having a look at the Wormhole forum when I stumbled upon this topic. While it's quite close to a tear-filled rant, the OP has brought up a very valid point that has made me think very seriously about it. I'd like to address it here and propose a rather small change. Perhaps it should be him who wrote this, but it's a valid concern for anyone.

W-Space is, by design, a challenging place to get intel from potential targets. Pilots don't appear on Local chat, there are no "free" bookmarks, "gates" change everyday... If you want to gather intel about someone, we have to use our "in-character" tools: D-Scan, probes, warp drive, cloak...

But, if the hunter adds said target to his/her Watchlist, he can inmediatly know if the character is online no matter where is he, what is he flying, how is it fitted, or even his skills as a player (remembering to cloak ASAP, making sure ships don't have his name emblazoned on them...). By just hearing the "ping-ping-ping" and looking at the bottom-right corner of the screen, he can know that target is ready for being ganked.

This goes against the basic principles of W-Space I stated above. It's a similar issue to that of API NPC kills, where by using a 3rd party tool a hunting group could know much about a target group, effectively jumping over the intended difficulties of dealing with intel on W-Space. And that breaks the rules, to say it hard. Even the word "exploit" comes to mind, if you think about it.

Of course the Watchlist is useful for hunting, as the API NPC kills were. Myself I have used it for such. But that doesn't mean it's fair. The problem is that once the target is watchlisted, there's nothing he can do about it, excepting trying to defend himself against an all-knowing enemy, or use this kind of "deus ex machina" himself... which is basically to "cheat" only because the ones harassing him "cheat" too. Such reasoning can keep circling itself endlessly.

Even if he's watchlisted because he was engaged once (and his hunters got his name), or forgot to change his ship's name, or because his Mobile Depots show his name when deployed, it isn't exactly fair. Sure, they now know about him, but that doesn't justify the hunters can perceive his presence beyond their ships' capabilities, which should be the only tools at their disposal.

So, here's my proposal:

Characters located in W-Space won't pop-up in anyone's Watchlist, independently on where the "watcher" is.

And I know that we like to have our friends watchlisted too and this would make them not appear either, but if friends were exempt from this, why would anyone not add their targets as friends so they show up? That would break the thing again...


I hope this topic raises awareness about this "weakpoint" in the system. If you have a better idea, please post it. And please be constructive.

watch list is not only against WH principles, its against any sanity in whole.
The watchlisted should be asked first whether one is allowed to watchlist him, such free easy intel is bad for any part of eve.

Here's an interesting twist. It allows for the WL to be used for covert intel, while at the same time making people work for it.

1. You can watchlist anyone with there permission. That doesn't change.

2. You can only watchlist someone without their knowledge if you are on grid with them. That way in any space, it rewards you for working for your intel. (Having to warp to the POS where the players are hanging out, or watching the gate/WH). At the same time you can't then just go watchlist their entire corp for free.

Yes, that's what I wanted to say with the first part of the sentence you quoted. What I meant with the complete sentence is that he brough to light the fact that the Watchlist can be used as a not exactly "fair" intel tool, given intended W-Space limitations. To put it bluntly, it's kind of an exploit, at least for me. We are not supposed to know when is someone around only because he logged in. What I want to say is I'm not making this topic for defending him, but for opening a debate about the use of the Watchlist in W-Space, and put it as an example. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in the OP; editing.

The reason I'm saying that the OP of the other thread does not have a point is that WH mechanics make the watchlist LESS effective in that space, not MORE effective. The reason the watchlist was MORE effective in his case was that he refused to do the one simple thing that was always available to him, be somewhere else.

With that said, I have no problem with people debating the watchlist functionality in general and won't impede the purpose of this thread in that respect. But you have to start with the facts, and the fact is, in a WH, the watchlist means d*ck all if you can't confirm the target is actually in it.

i like this idea and would add that once you leave a hole you appear online if you re-enter it pops you up as offline

+1 I guess.

I've never understood the watchlist, by lore or logic.

that's why I just stay logged in 23.8/7 if i need to "hide" from the list.

side note:

just get rid of the whole thing as far as im concerned.

I now see your point; I misanderstood. About the second paragraph of your comment, well, I started my reasoning from the point where the target is already located in a system and is being followed.

Fair enough. I'm not sure that's really a problem in a WH though. I mean the effect is the same anywhere, you aren't going to be able to PvE in the system you want to PvE in if people are hunting you using the watchlist. The difference in a WH is that once you slip away it's much harder to find you again. Now if they do see you slip out they might try to roll the hole behind you, which is a WH problem that kspace wouldn't run into. But then in kspace you can't hide because of locator agents and local. I just don't see how the watchlist is any more effective in wspace where it should be limited more than in kspace.

Should have just posted here instead of the other troll thread.

Watchlist should stay but be limited to someone who accepts your watchlist request, probably linked to the 'Send notification' checkbox already in place when you add a contact. This keeps the useful functionality in place for friends.

In recompense, locator agents should be changed so they can will tell you if a person (who does not accept your request) is online even if in a wormhole. But there is a cost associated with that so it is not instant, free, recordable intel.