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Crime & Punishment

 
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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#161 - 2014-11-19 17:28:40 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Thomas Mayaki wrote:

Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.


Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.

I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.

This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.


Most suicide ganks of mining vessels do not have a profit motive. They are usually about collecting 'QQ', roleplay, business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability.
Paranoid Loyd
#162 - 2014-11-19 17:42:34 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability.
These reasons are profit motive.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#163 - 2014-11-19 17:52:54 UTC
Bagatur I wrote:
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Is it really? I still don't see many Skiffs. I don't go looking for them though.. Today I've seen 1 hulk (with an orca in belt), 1 covetor, 1 procurer and a mackinaw.


The OP just wants to see a miner, any miner, and be able to gank him easily. I dont see that many skiffs either. In the system where I mine, which is 0.5 and ganks happen almost every day, I see more macks and hulks than skiffs. Do some flying around and pick easier targets ffs Roll

As to the skiff itself, the hull is like 160mil. I am not sure about the fittings, but lets stick to the hull price only. A 673 DPS catalyst is 9-10mil (taken from here http://greedygoblin.blogspot.de/2013/08/catalyst-ganking-guide.html). So a skiff hull costs as much as 16 gank fitted catalysts. Taking 20 second CONCORD response time, 16 catalysts can deal 16*673*20 which is about 215k damage. That is WAY more than skiff's EHP. So even now the gankers' lose less than the victim. Working as intended IMO. The gankers win! And dont whine about not recovering the costs of the gank. You want to lose nothing while the other player loses around 200mil? Get real.


I don't want to move away from my OP's subject but I am always EXTREMELY specific about who I attack(Except for the MTU I was tricked into attacking the other day.Oops ) and I only work in one system. I don't attack single or smaller mining operations and I would never attack a Venture as that would be really sad. I stop clearance of whole belts so smaller miners can mine. The miners contract me to remove these large, and often 'afk' or ISBoxer run, mining fleets. I don't expect to make a profit from any ganks I do although I will attempt to recover ship fttings and loot with my associates 'in crime'.

I still stand by my statement that use of Skiffs for mining in conjunction with membership of an NPC corp literally covers all the bases so attacking them is very problematic. Actually I would say the current Skiff statistics rival the pre-first rebalancing of the mining vessels making the current Skiff the 'best ship' to mine in . As we all know CCP wants roles in all ship classes and no 'best' ships therefore the statistics of the Skiff have to be revised !!
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2014-11-19 17:58:56 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:


I think I like this idea and will use it as a basis for my proposal on the F&I board. Smile


Go right ahead :P

In essence I think CCP made a big mistake by removing the specialized roles of barges and xumers. Or at the very least they did a crappy job at making the choice between the new line a bit more interesting.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#165 - 2014-11-19 18:02:21 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
business manipulation/market reasons, or resource protection/sustainability.
These reasons are profit motive.


I wasn't succinct in how I worded my reply. I meant lack of profit in terms of the actual physical act & immediate result of the suicide gank. If someone wishes to then afterwards keep their sec status to between 0 and -5.00 then ratting time or purchase of expensive tags is required which pushes the economic element further into the 'red'.

Of course if ganking is done so more mining ships are built and purchased then profits will be made by manufacturers & sellers. Likewise where I operate in terms of resource protection & sustainability there will rocks available to be mined by smaller mining operations or single miners and they will make ISK by selling what they mine or selling what they make from the minerals.
Lee Nolan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#166 - 2014-11-19 18:08:28 UTC
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.

And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2014-11-19 18:14:07 UTC
Lee Nolan wrote:
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship.

You seem to be agreeing that it might be a bit too much in one little package Lol
Lee Nolan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-11-19 18:48:29 UTC
There are lots of ships that are well suited to the role they are meant for. There are a few that are not (I am looking at you, Rorqual). The Skiff does what it's designed to do and does it well. Whether it's balanced versus other ships is a separate matter.

And generally, I am not in favor of nerfing ships because they are better. I would seek to improve the ships that need them rather than nerf the ones that need none. A good example would be when they balanced T1 frigates. Most of them sucked except for the Rifter. The answer wasn't nerf the Rifter until it was as terrible as the others. The right choice was to improve the other frigates until they were more or less in line with the Rifter.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#169 - 2014-11-19 19:09:22 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Mack needs a tank nerf and skiff needs a yield nerf.

If the Skiff needs anything, it needs a capacity nerf not a yield nerf. Having the same yield as a Mack is fine, but being able to go twice as long without offloading as a Hulk seems a bit out of place.


As I have said before capacity is a poor balancing point. It is either very important(solo mining) or negligible(hauler alt). No in between. Nerfing capacity has no impact on the skiff being absurdly good for high sec fleet mining.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#170 - 2014-11-19 19:13:03 UTC
Lee Nolan wrote:
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.

And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.


It's a big more complex than that. If skiffs had half the yield of a Mackinaw, I would be fine with skiffs being able to ignore other players. There is a strong trade off for being able to do so. There is no trade off right now.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#171 - 2014-11-19 19:58:50 UTC
Lee Nolan wrote:
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.

And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.


That is a very good post and spot on.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#172 - 2014-11-19 20:02:51 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Lee Nolan wrote:
The real reason people are crying about the Skiff in this thread is because a Skiff pilot can ignore them. Gankers do not (as much of) pose a threat to Skiffs. They're difficult to bump, difficult to gank, difficult to annoy in general. They don't need to pay into a protection racket (a la CODE.). They don't need a fleet of ships to protect them. They don't need any protection actually except a few modules. They have all they need in the form of a well tanked and serviceable mining ship. You cannot extract many tears from a Skiff pilot which is why they are crying about it.

And by the way, there are lots of ships that are not economical to suicide gank. It's not a requirement in Eve that every ship be economical to gank.


It's a big more complex than that. If skiffs had half the yield of a Mackinaw, I would be fine with skiffs being able to ignore other players. There is a strong trade off for being able to do so. There is no trade off right now.


If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically. The yield and cargo capacity are advantages, but with the level of ganking and harassment it makes no sense to take the small gain, which is why I suggest that the Hulk and Mackinaw get a buff to their mining yield.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#173 - 2014-11-19 21:05:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#174 - 2014-11-19 21:38:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.


If you say so... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#175 - 2014-11-19 21:41:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.


If you say so... Roll


That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#176 - 2014-11-19 21:42:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.


If you say so... Roll


That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.


Whatever pulls your chain Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#177 - 2014-11-20 01:00:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.


If you say so... Roll


That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.


Yes, you can always log off and go do something else.

Otherwise, there is no 100% in a game where even a titan can be killed by a pos.

You are being overly simplistic.
Or trolling.
Or both.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#178 - 2014-11-20 02:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Black Pedro wrote:
Thomas Mayaki wrote:

Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.


Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.

I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.

This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.

Keep in mind many Skiff pilots do not fit the Damage Control to their ships and many failfit it altogether regarding mids/rigs. A well fit Skiff without the DC would have about 58xx EHP while the typical fit has something more like 50xx. They aren't too hard to gank with a handful of buddies in fleet. Not profitable but can be done (easily) with positive KB efficiency.

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25816660

I would say the main reason we don't see more Skiff ganks is because there are still enough idiots in anti-tanked Hulks and Mackinaws floating around.

Tear Jar wrote:
As I have said before capacity is a poor balancing point. It is either very important(solo mining) or negligible(hauler alt). No in between. Nerfing capacity has no impact on the skiff being absurdly good for high sec fleet mining.

The Skiff pilot is AFK so it does have some effect. Skiff should lose a bit of both yield and cargo.

ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.


Yes, you can always log off and go do something else.

Otherwise, there is no 100% in a game where even a titan can be killed by a pos.

You are being overly simplistic.
Or trolling.
Or both.

You can move to a new belt out of scan range or a new system. You can use a jump clone at the other end of the galaxy. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable... without having to quit.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#179 - 2014-11-20 02:40:18 UTC
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

If there was no ganking, fleet miners would be in a Hulk and solo miners in a Mackinaw, but due to the ganking people are moving towards the Skiff, cause and effect basically.


If they were actually playing the game, and were at their keyboards, there would be no ganking. Cause and effect basically.


If you say so... Roll


That's not an opinion. Ganks at belts are 100% avoidable.


Yes, you can always log off and go do something else.

Otherwise, there is no 100% in a game where even a titan can be killed by a pos.

You are being overly simplistic.
Or trolling.
Or both.
Not really.. Higgs rig (so you move slow), align out, use dscan, be tank fit, warp out if someone starts scanning you or there are catalysts on dscan, browse killboards and -10 all gankers you can find, warp out when one of those is in system.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#180 - 2014-11-20 03:07:52 UTC
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:

Yes, you can always log off and go do something else.

Otherwise, there is no 100% in a game where even a titan can be killed by a pos.

You are being overly simplistic.
Or trolling.
Or both.


Or... D-scan. Yeah, that.

Ganking in a belt is 100% avoidable. But it does require you to actually be at the keyboard, and playing the game more than 1/4th of your ass.

I would ask you "do you even play this game?", but since you seem to be a miner, I already know that the answer is no.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.