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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2141 - 2014-11-18 07:46:53 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
It's extremely ironic that CCP wants to move towards more of a "Local production" environment, but jump fatigue basically doesn't affect jump freighters in a meaningful way.

Because travelling around with hauling ships isn't as big a part of power projection as travelling around with ships that can shoot things, and local production isn't in a place where it can sufficiently take over for Jita.

Mr Omniblivion wrote:
A change in the isotope requirement formula would significantly impact the cost of transport. This means that local markets would have more value and people would be forced to make meaningful decisions on whether or not to import/export or produce locally. In moving goods, people would decide whether or not to jump the goods to market or to take gates to save their margins.

But apparently cost is not an effective balancing factor, while a flat timer where you can't move is.Roll

We've seen how cost works as a balancing factor in such things like titans, or even now in just how much we can spend in a single day using caps. We're talking about non-trivial costs in both cases.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2142 - 2014-11-18 09:43:06 UTC
You 2 on page 107... get a room.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2143 - 2014-11-18 09:50:12 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
I still don't understand the overall goal of the patch.

How is this going to create content if no one can advance on one another?

Im noticing a massive decrease in content post patch endless you count dropping supers within 5 ly of staging system on nothing and only doing it for the "lulz"...

Jump bridges are atrocious. Its OUR sov we shouldn't be dam near punished for using it. I shouldn't have to spend hours traveling just to attempt to fight with a gang rolling threw.

Even after these slight changes I still feel this was/is by far the worst mechanic in eve ( not including sov but I didn't think id have to say it)

Why do you hate content?

I was kinda hoping for a travel time on jumping via jump drives. Like a 8ly jump would take x amount of time in tunnel. Not this "Jump! But now you can't jump again for a week... Sincerely, CCP"



So maybe you should open your eyes. Because the number of conflicts have increased a lot. YEs less dumb hotdropping, but more real fights.

If content for you is hotdropping in something with 20:1 ratio and bug off, then maybe you should get into CODE.



All I hope is CCP do not get YET another exapnsion without the second stage of the 0.0 changes. That woudl crush the faith on their compromise .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2144 - 2014-11-18 15:00:11 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Rowells wrote:
What is the difference in mechanics between when a jump drive is used for strategic purposes and when it is used for anythin non-combat? I don't care what actually happens after or before the jump, since that is completely up to the pilots ever changing objectives. How does the jump bridge/drive itself change its behavior between the two scenarios?


The mechanic doesn't change whether or not you're jumping into rats or an enemy.

Looking at the jump drive in this fashion is pointless, because you can look at any action in a small enough time frame to curtail it to your exact argument.

What you should be looking at is the aggregate cost of all jumps to get to what their objective is.

If an individual person is using three jump bridges to get from his home system to his local hub, then the aggregate cost is low because it is casual use.

If a fleet of 250 players is trying to use a jump bridge network to get from Deklein to Delve, that aggregate cost would be gigantic and prohibitive to any organization. Not only that, but the proposed changes would mean that a jump bridge could not hold enough fuel to facilitate 250 ships larger than frigs without being refueled. Logistically speaking, they'd have to refill each bridge every jump, and that would not be feasible. This is why it would have the same exact impact as the jump fatigue, except more beneficial in other areas of the game.

Thus, saying "but what are they doing on the other side of the jump" literally has no impact, because that argument could be extrapolated all the way to "but what are they doing when they log into eve, how should the login mechanic change if they're pvping or mining in high sec".



It was supposed to be cost prohibitive to build/own titans. It worked really well as a balancing mechanism...
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#2145 - 2014-11-18 15:01:42 UTC
Confirming fights are so much better up here in the North...even considering we haven't had to force issues by dropping sbu's (excepting a couple in MTO for S**** and giggles). CO2 have been fantastic hosts, and apparently a bunch of other alliances are being recalled to help provide content.

Thank you CCP :)
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2146 - 2014-11-18 18:45:41 UTC
Confirming that not enough caps are blindly jumping through stargates into subcap gatecamps so the jump drive is being completely removed entirely with no skill point compensation of course. Enjoy! Another present from CCP. Merry Christmas. Oh, and no complaining or you are too soft and not able to adapt. And of course, Black Ops get their range extended to 100 ly with no fatigue. Another Christmas present. Merry Ratter Hotdrops and a Happy New Eden! Ho ho ho!

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2147 - 2014-11-18 19:18:59 UTC
Someone needs to stop toking up on bitter.
Sexy Damsel
Perkone
Caldari State
#2148 - 2014-11-18 22:09:30 UTC
thats why CCp is losing customers.
It will take me probly a month!! to move my carrier from deep north 0.0 to low sec!!
A MONTH!!!
next jump i can make is in 3 days.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2149 - 2014-11-18 22:52:20 UTC
Sexy Damsel wrote:
thats why CCp is losing customers.
It will take me probly a month!! to move my carrier from deep north 0.0 to low sec!!
A MONTH!!!
next jump i can make is in 3 days.

Try taking gates while waiting out your fatigue timers fully. Ignore the temptation to jump immediately after jump cool down is over.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2150 - 2014-11-19 09:52:38 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Confirming that not enough caps are blindly jumping through stargates into subcap gatecamps so the jump drive is being completely removed entirely with no skill point compensation of course. Enjoy! Another present from CCP. Merry Christmas. Oh, and no complaining or you are too soft and not able to adapt. And of course, Black Ops get their range extended to 100 ly with no fatigue. Another Christmas present. Merry Ratter Hotdrops and a Happy New Eden! Ho ho ho!



Seems someone was too lenient and used to the easiness of former 0.0


Welcome back to a ruthless game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2151 - 2014-11-19 09:54:25 UTC
Sexy Damsel wrote:
thats why CCp is losing customers.
It will take me probly a month!! to move my carrier from deep north 0.0 to low sec!!
A MONTH!!!
next jump i can make is in 3 days.



You must be really bad at math then. Because most people realize that you should NOT jump as soon as your cooldown is over. That is the most effective way to travel long distances.

Also check strategical gates that are worth taking to cut your path a lot.

With some scouts you can probably do that travel within 3-4 hours.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niskin
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
The Chicken Coop
#2152 - 2014-11-19 14:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Niskin
Ok, lets do this again for the people who don't get it. To be fair I reread the dev blog before I wrote this and I will say that somewhere along the line some info may have gotten lost. I don't see a clear explanation of what happens to fatigue when you get below 10 minutes. This is because fatigue was originally a number representing an amount of time, not an actual amount of time. In switching the explanation over to minutes they seem to have left out the strict explanation of this breakpoint. To be clear, the following statement from the dev blog infers what you need to know but doesn't state it very clearly:

Jump fatigue has a minimum amount of 10 x (1 + (LY traveled)) minutes after a jump. Jump fatigue has a maximum amount of 30 days.

That 10 is a representation of minutes. Since 10 is the minimum they use in the calculation that means that jumping during the last 10 minutes of fatigue is the same as jumping at 0 minutes of fatigue. With that explained clearly, here we go.

Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 5LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump)
Fatigue after first jump: 60 minutes

So you wait the 6 minutes, because you have to. Then we break into the two scenarios. Scenario A will be waiting until the optimum moment to jump to minimize fatigue. Scenario B will just jump when the cooldown timer ends.

Scenario A Jump 2: Knowing that the best time to jump is when you have 10 minutes of fatigue or less, you wait 50 minutes after the first jump. That's an additional 44 minutes of waiting past the cooldown for a clean jump.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 60 minutes
Time spent: 50 minutes


Scenario B Jump 2: Not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 54 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 324 minutes (5.4 hours)
Time spent: 6 minutes


Scenario A Jump 3: Once again you repeat the 50 minute wait, which is 44 minutes more than your jump cooldown.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 60 minutes
Time spent: 100 minutes (1.66 hours)


Scenario B Jump 3: Still not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 318 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 31.8 minutes (10 % of fatigue before jump, or 6, whichever is higher)
Fatigue: 1908 minutes (31.8 hours)
Time spent: 12 minutes


Summary: Max sustained jump speed is now 5LY/50 minutes for carriers/dreads/supers/titans. You can go faster than that, but after the 3rd jump things get slow due to the cooldown blooming past the 6 minute minimum.

If you didn't notice the pattern by now, you should always wait your fatigue down to 10 minutes or less before you jump unless it's absolutely necessary. Things get multiplicative quickly if you don't.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#2153 - 2014-11-19 18:47:13 UTC
Niskin wrote:
Ok, lets do this again for the people who don't get it. To be fair I reread the dev blog before I wrote this and I will say that somewhere along the line some info may have gotten lost. I don't see a clear explanation of what happens to fatigue when you get below 10 minutes. This is because fatigue was originally a number representing an amount of time, not an actual amount of time. In switching the explanation over to minutes they seem to have left out the strict explanation of this breakpoint. To be clear, the following statement from the dev blog infers what you need to know but doesn't state it very clearly:

Jump fatigue has a minimum amount of 10 x (1 + (LY traveled)) minutes after a jump. Jump fatigue has a maximum amount of 30 days.

That 10 is a representation of minutes. Since 10 is the minimum they use in the calculation that means that jumping during the last 10 minutes of fatigue is the same as jumping at 0 minutes of fatigue. With that explained clearly, here we go.

Starting Fatigue: 0
Starting Jump Cooldown: 0

All jumps will be 5LY.

Cooldown after first jump: 6 minutes (this is the minimum for any jump)
Fatigue after first jump: 60 minutes

So you wait the 6 minutes, because you have to. Then we break into the two scenarios. Scenario A will be waiting until the optimum moment to jump to minimize fatigue. Scenario B will just jump when the cooldown timer ends.

Scenario A Jump 2: Knowing that the best time to jump is when you have 10 minutes of fatigue or less, you wait 50 minutes after the first jump. That's an additional 44 minutes of waiting past the cooldown for a clean jump.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 60 minutes
Time spent: 50 minutes


Scenario B Jump 2: Not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 54 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 10LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 324 minutes (5.4 hours)
Time spent: 6 minutes


Scenario A Jump 3: Once again you repeat the 50 minute wait, which is 44 minutes more than your jump cooldown.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 6 minutes
Fatigue: 60 minutes
Time spent: 100 minutes (1.66 hours)


Scenario B Jump 3: Still not caring about the effect of the fatigue mechanic, you jump after the 6 minute cooldown timer is up. That means you jumped with 318 minutes of fatigue remaining.

Distance Traveled: 15LY
Jump Cooldown: 31.8 minutes (10 % of fatigue before jump, or 6, whichever is higher)
Fatigue: 1908 minutes (31.8 hours)
Time spent: 12 minutes


Summary: Max sustained jump speed is now 5LY/50 minutes for carriers/dreads/supers/titans. You can go faster than that, but after the 3rd jump things get slow due to the cooldown blooming past the 6 minute minimum.

If you didn't notice the pattern by now, you should always wait your fatigue down to 10 minutes or less before you jump unless it's absolutely necessary. Things get multiplicative quickly if you don't.



Excellent, now we have mathematical proof as to why Capital travel with the now anemic jump drive is not worth the time not mater which way you go. Capitals on gate....seems Marxist to me.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2154 - 2014-11-19 18:56:34 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Excellent, now we have mathematical proof as to why Capital travel with the now anemic jump drive is not worth the time not mater which way you go. Capitals on gate....seems Marxist to me.

If its not worth the time, then obviously it wasn't important enough. No more,"Iforgot that module back in highsec, I'll be back in 5 minutes."

Also: Marxist? explanation please
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2155 - 2014-11-19 18:59:39 UTC
Actually, the jumpdrive's just as useful as ever, it just isn't as versatile and powerful as before. Still doesn't negate the fact that it's usable to get around gatecamps AND be able to get safely into a station. So hardly useless or anemic.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#2156 - 2014-11-19 19:06:52 UTC
14 Light years to 5 is the definition of anemic mate...

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#2157 - 2014-11-19 19:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Easthir Ravin
Rowells wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Excellent, now we have mathematical proof as to why Capital travel with the now anemic jump drive is not worth the time not mater which way you go. Capitals on gate....seems Marxist to me.

If its not worth the time, then obviously it wasn't important enough. No more,"Iforgot that module back in highsec, I'll be back in 5 minutes."

Also: Marxist? explanation please



Population control through restrictive travel...seems Marxist to me...The tired excuse of driving conflict is a bit week seeing as the East and South have been perpetually at war since last October give or take a week or two. If you want SOV to change then change SOV, not some cockamamy nerf to travel in a game that already takes forever to play affectively.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2158 - 2014-11-19 19:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Excellent, now we have mathematical proof as to why Capital travel with the now anemic jump drive is not worth the time not mater which way you go. Capitals on gate....seems Marxist to me.

If its not worth the time, then obviously it wasn't important enough. No more,"Iforgot that module back in highsec, I'll be back in 5 minutes."

Also: Marxist? explanation please



Population control through restrictive travel...seems Marxist to me...The tired excuse of driving conflict is a bit week seeing as the East and South have been perpetually at war since last October give or take a week or two. If you want SOV to change then change SOV, not some cockamamy nerf to travel in a game that already takes forever to play affectively.

You might need to change your goals and mindset. Thinking you can or even have to do all the things you could before will hazardous. Travel time was almost pointless before since you could cross the map and go back again in less than thirty minutes. Now being in the right position at the right time has more meaning.

Are you saying that gate travel is Marxist?

Also, the SE being the only place with conflict does not justify inaction. Especially when the whole south and pockets in the north east caught the sparks.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2159 - 2014-11-19 19:45:52 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
14 Light years to 5 is the definition of anemic mate...

Nah, more like 14 was too high a number, and CCP should've made that number smaller when they first added caps to the game. That way people wouldn't be complaining, because they wouldn't have this feeling of entitlement regarding being able to travel as far, as quickly.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#2160 - 2014-11-19 21:08:08 UTC
Would of, could of, should of. Argument doesn't fly here, it is about the here and now. Jump distance is not the issue. SOV is, fix that first. Then revisit capitals if needed.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"