Ships & Modules

Tier 3s have pretty exceptional speed so the webs aren't necessary in lowsec, everything truly faster gets screwed by the sentries. And my Scimi was at the risk-free PvP range of 100km+ so I'd basically have to DC or go braindead to die

EDIT: I mean really, even outside of (admittedly niche) PvP applications, the bonus to tracking links also works quite well for PvE as well. Meanwhile you have goofy **** like the Prophecy's cap use only or the Info War link bonuses.

I'm wondering what kind of ships you think are faster than Tier 3s and still capable of holding up under sentries? That's the only case where I'd say, yeah, a Rapier would be better.

Pretty much any HAC can do it, and any T1 cruiser can do it if they bring a PROPERLY FIT Scim out of their own. Probably the most adept ship at it would be a nano Broadsword or Ishtar - both of them able to cover the distance to scram range in well under 15 seconds. Hell the Broadsword can do it with over 100k EHP.

-Liang

Ed: And that ignores things like tanked Arazus with faction scrams nailing you at 40km. ;-)

What would you see as an optimal Vanguard fleet then? General consensus seems to be that you need Logi to keep up with repping, at which point what would be a better use of slots than tracking links on Scimmys (seeing as how you maintain the same repping power) and this helps your gang apply DPS much better (as many Vanguard sites are full of frigs)?

What else could you use those slots for that would be better than a bonused tracking link? If nothing, then the bonused link is better than a non-bonused link and the bonus has a use. Honest question, if there's a better Vanguard fleet comp out there i'd like to know.

I'm not sure how you plan to avoid a 4.5km/s Arazu with 40km faction scrams. Chances are he could nab your Oracles before you could even align to warp out (MWD off, 7 second align time). -_-

-Liang

Scimi with an active tanking bonus would actually be pretty neat.

Overheated MWD, Snakes, Loki bonuses (but that was a given considering we're talking about 40km faction scrams). Its actually a bit faster than that, and comes with 50k EHP. Even if you feel that Snakes are "cheating" (I don't - pirate implants are surprisingly common in low sec), the Arazu can get almost 3km/s without them.

Your margin for error is very small when an Arazu hits the field. Warp out.

-Liang

Just for ***** and giggles, I put this to the test last night. I ran a scimi in some incursions last night in my high sec alt. I had 2 faction tracking links and linked them in my lfsf. However, in the fleets I was in (shiny fleets), I turned them on at the initial warp in for one cycle and them had them off the rest of the sites. I did this for about 5 hours in two different fleets. Not a thing was said by anyone but one logi pilot who privated convo'd me and said he didn't see the graphics going for it. I was the only scimi both fleets with 2 basis in each fleet.

This doesn't prove anything, of course. However, it does make me wonder, if they are so awesome in PvE, how can two shiny fleets run for around 5 hours without once wondering about a "noticable" lack of dps from not having said support.

Depends on the fleets being used and what they have fit. If they're all sporting 2+ TCs themselves then odds are they wouldn't have noticed the difference. What's more is that in incursions (and indeed in most areas of the game) if your tracking suddenly goes up in a ship you've been using for a long time, you won't notice. It's when you STOP hitting that you tend to pay attention, and I would imagine most shiny incursion fleet pilots know when to shoot to make the most of their tracking. If you were in a fleet of pilots that knew each other, and usually had a TL scimi with them, they would definitely notice the lack of TLs from you. Really, with a pub, you could be in a DPS ship, and never fire a single round, and no one would notice.

That said, the last time I had a scimi on me with TLs in an incursion, I stopped webbing the things I was shooting, it was pretty great (so my 90% webs went on things OTHER people were shooting :P )

I've also used them to great effect with moros and revelations (smaller gang dicking around mostly) and seen them used to great effect supporting titans, and in that role they are most certainly NOT more useful than a rapier.

In the end though it doesn't matter. Look at the first page, literally a quarter of the posts are people defending the TL bonus, and more than half the posts on the second page debating about it back and fourth (with liang on one side and most everyone else on the other), You're not just wrong, you're so wrong that you've derailed the entire thread arguing with all the people who TELL you that you're wrong. And this isn't some sort of argument based in logic either; you claim that the bonus is useless, a bunch of people come in and say they make use of it, which makes you wrong. Period.

It's pretty damn easy to have BOTH webs and TLs being thrown on the field, and ignoring the fact that most ships can sport webs themselves when it comes to tracking issues, you're conveniently ignoring the ships on which these mods are being used.

Think of it this way:
A scimi with a web range bonus would be AMAZING. Definitely overpowered. Your argument of "well a rapier is better" is absurd, simply because the rapier can't rep the way a scimi can. The argument at hand is whether or not the current bonus on the scimi is useless. And the fact that people make use of it, regardless of whether that use seems valid to you, means that no, it is NOT useless.

Also this talk of being driven off in under 2 minutes is BS. In lowsec, maybe, but in highsec (and nullsec, depending on the circumstances) it's not hard to make use of that range to keep yourself in the fight. A TD (or hell even a few damps) can go a long way to that effect, but then I would argue that the best way to keep things off the logi is to have some... you know.. tackle. In your earlier example regarding the broadsword, how long would it take one to cover that 70km while being scrammed? Webbed? Both?

There's also another angle to look at this that makes you sound no better than those whiny NERF WINMATAR scrubs:
You're arguing that the scimi deserves to get a better bonus than the one it currently has (regardless of whether or not it's actually better is irrelevant, the point is that you THINK it's better). This means that you think the scimi is underpowered, and/or in some need of a boost.
The scimi needs a boost? Really? The scimi is AMAZING. Tiny sig radius, great speed, 70km range, and capable of single handedly turning the tide in the smaller gang fights in which you seem to think are its only use (ignoring the smaller/faster gangs that run around with scimis because the other logis are notably slower)
But apparently that's not enough for you, you think it should also get the local tank of a sleipnir. Your logi is NOT underpowered, it does NOT need a different bonus, especially not when said bonus is so that you can have an easier time tanking gate guns.

As for the bonus being useless, people use it, and pretending that the only possible options are a TL scimi or a rapier/lachesis when it comes to fleet comp (because apparently they are the same ship, and there is no benefit in fielding both) doesn't change the fact that people use them, which means they have a use, which means they're not useless.