These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Save Our Clones Initiative.

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Erehwon Rorschach
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#341 - 2014-11-19 12:49:54 UTC
I'm glad it's changing.

It's not that I forget to update my clone, more the fact that with tech as advanced as we have in EVE it should never have been a thing :p

Because your mum just couldn't say no.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#342 - 2014-11-19 13:05:40 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:

I don't think so personally, I just think the null bears will start whining about implant costs next, and how they shouldn't be penalised for losing them etc.

eventually eve will be like wow in space.

If that happens I can assure you all that my name won't be on the next ******* monument in Iceland.



I personally don't like being penalized for skill choices I made early on for the rest of the EVE pilot's life. If you have a better system to propose, which I've yet to see in this entire thread, then please do so.


The cost is exponential, and paying 80M a clone, while acceptable to you, is totally asymmetric for older clones. The only solution from thread starter is "make more alts!", which is a solution which she is actually opposed to for every other problem encountered in EVE.


2/3 of your post reads like a rant and there is no kind way to respond to it.

Call me Joe.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#343 - 2014-11-19 13:05:49 UTC
So new changes to the clones lol its about time. For many people its a reasons why not going to low sec or zero sec.

First you need a clone to back you up. If you have +5 implants you dont want to lose those. And you can say you have jump clone, but you lose sp in over time so people spare those time to not using there "jump clone" Just because of the +5 or other implants.

I hope the remove those implants and add the clone you can buy with those implants so its cose a little more but its not a waste.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#344 - 2014-11-19 13:11:37 UTC
Thalos Elongus wrote:
I was kicked out of a null-sec station, and that moved my clone to Jita 4-4...

There is no Medical station in Jita 4-4!!! And i have some station campers which try to blow me up on an undock from there... I did manage to get out, but this was not nice.


This makes no sense. No one can kick you out of a station, they can just kick your clone out.


And if you're kicked out of corp you are in an NPC corp which can't have war targets by definition. Sounds like you are just confused about current clone mechanics.


Call me Joe.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#345 - 2014-11-19 13:18:54 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
Carry on with the simplification of eve for the unwashed, uneducated, attention deficient masses.

It makes good business sense after all


ooohhhhh an elite! wow! Roll


seriously just #savethelance.

Just Add Water
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#346 - 2014-11-19 13:33:29 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
On the bright side, we now have the interesting choice of whether or not to update our outdated clones before the patch. Big smile


Too right, I'm under a million away from tipping over another clone grade, fortunately I've got an alt on the same account I've been meaning to round off a few support skills on Big smile
Araxmas
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#347 - 2014-11-19 13:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Araxmas
I have yet to read a good reason as to why we should keep the current clone system.
All I see are people whinging about how this will kill the spirit of the game but they are not actually supplying any evidence to back up that claim. I mean really buying a clone is ‘core gameplay’?!

I’ve been playing eve for just under 10 years and buying a new clone was never ‘core gameplay’ it was a pointless activity that everyone did and was never a critical part of the game. Clones are cheap and you always remember to buy a new one. So really what is the point of them?

I don’t mind having something to do when you die to revitalise your clone as it will enforce the idea of punishment and a harsh universe. However spending a trivial amount of money and clicking a button is rather simple and quite frankly it is unnecessary.

p.s. Yes I know higher SP clones are very expensive to some people but when you have that many SP you tend to not be short of money.

p.p.s Also people please stop ranting about it being a simplication of eve. Buying a new clone was what? 4 mouse clicks.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#348 - 2014-11-19 14:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
CCP Darwin wrote:
Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


... or it could be intended as an ISK sink

13kr1d1 wrote:
Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones.


I have no problem witht the cost of clones. It is the nuisance and cost of implants that bother me.

I would like to see corpses being salvaged and an implant harvesting skill & tools. Just imagine the fun of trading corpses you have picked up to some guy that can dig into their heads and pull out tasty treats? Twisted

That would lower the cost of implants and help reduce the nuisance factor by having greater supplies spread about.

Further on this in game suggestions.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#349 - 2014-11-19 14:36:39 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Magormor wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
I agree. I don't really see why they have to further negatively impact the gameplay of Eve because people can't adapt.


lololol who is "not adapting"???


my 10 cents. Clone cost is silly. I often wont engage a gang with a sabre unless I know I can win. I do otherwise take fights that have a high probability of my loosing, but I hate to add an extra 20mill to each death so there is less content.

I am a PVPer saying I will adapt for the good effects of me PVPing more. You have 0 PVP kills and 1 pod loss. This does not affect you. https://zkillboard.com/character/581013969/


You're a PvPer who can't get your pod out?


Are you the one who has the magic method for getting your pod out of a sabre's bubble?


Didn't realize everyone bubbles for a 1v1.
Have you tried not engaging Sabres?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#350 - 2014-11-19 15:23:52 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Magormor wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
I agree. I don't really see why they have to further negatively impact the gameplay of Eve because people can't adapt.


lololol who is "not adapting"???


my 10 cents. Clone cost is silly. I often wont engage a gang with a sabre unless I know I can win. I do otherwise take fights that have a high probability of my loosing, but I hate to add an extra 20mill to each death so there is less content.

I am a PVPer saying I will adapt for the good effects of me PVPing more. You have 0 PVP kills and 1 pod loss. This does not affect you. https://zkillboard.com/character/581013969/


You're a PvPer who can't get your pod out?


Are you the one who has the magic method for getting your pod out of a sabre's bubble?


Didn't realize everyone bubbles for a 1v1.
Have you tried not engaging Sabres?

I didn't realize pvp is greatly composed of 1v1.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#351 - 2014-11-19 15:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
Thalos Elongus wrote:
I had another "Issue" with the clones...

You need to find a station that actually has a med bay in order to upgrade your medical clone. I was kicked out of a null-sec station, and that moved my clone to Jita 4-4...

There is no Medical station in Jita 4-4!!!

Actually, there is. You just went to the wrong Jita 4-4.

But yeah, I agree.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#352 - 2014-11-19 15:47:37 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Because death taxes aren't covered by the alliance srp. Seems to me like that's the part that hurts.

They could be if we felt it were actually necessary. We don't. We never have.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#353 - 2014-11-19 15:54:42 UTC
Araxmas wrote:
p.s. Yes I know higher SP clones are very expensive to some people but when you have that many SP you tend to not be short of money.

this assumption again. risking a pod and funding a pod are the same activity

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#354 - 2014-11-19 16:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Magormor wrote:


lololol who is "not adapting"???


my 10 cents. Clone cost is silly. I often wont engage a gang with a sabre unless I know I can win. I do otherwise take fights that have a high probability of my loosing, but I hate to add an extra 20mill to each death so there is less content.

I am a PVPer saying I will adapt for the good effects of me PVPing more. You have 0 PVP kills and 1 pod loss. This does not affect you. https://zkillboard.com/character/581013969/


You're a PvPer who can't get your pod out?


Are you the one who has the magic method for getting your pod out of a sabre's bubble?


Didn't realize everyone bubbles for a 1v1.
Have you tried not engaging Sabres?


You might want to read back your quote pyramid, he said he didn't engage Sabres as he didn't want to lose his pod, you mocked him for not being able to get his pod out, and when he replied that bubbles don't give you much of a choice, you then followed up by telling him not to engage Sabres... you know, the action you mocked him for doing? I know on these forums "I am right, and wont back down" is every shitposters mantra, but still.
skar23
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2014-11-19 16:32:13 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
The same can be said of putting modules on your combat based ships. It's not a choice of should I shouldnt I. It's a forced option just like the clone, because the consequences of not choosing is a blown up ship and no ability to kill anyone else.

So let's also replace module attachment with some other more fun mechanic instead of a boring one.

How about old games like Elite or Privateer? Putting armor on isn't a "choice". You buy it and do it not to die. In any game like that, the fundamental is that if you die, you lose time. Time invested in missions or the gain of in game currency. That means you have lost the time devoted to that stuff. The reset button or reload doesn't obviate you from this Cost. Similarly, the loss of a ship, and the loss of clone skill points for "forgetfulness" represents a loss of time/in game currency. SP are in game currency as much as ISK.

I don't agree that it's good game design objectively to try to "weed out" such decisions. I think it's subjective.
Quote:

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness.


All games punish forgetfulness in some manner. Particularly more skill based games that rely on co-ordination.

MidnightWyvern wrote:

Hopefully this excellent and intelligent post is the end of these stupid threads.


And you've been invaluable to the thread.



and you have become boring...
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#356 - 2014-11-19 20:07:16 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:

I don't think so personally, I just think the null bears will start whining about implant costs next, and how they shouldn't be penalised for losing them etc.

eventually eve will be like wow in space.

If that happens I can assure you all that my name won't be on the next ******* monument in Iceland.



I personally don't like being penalized for skill choices I made early on for the rest of the EVE pilot's life. If you have a better system to propose, which I've yet to see in this entire thread, then please do so.


The cost is exponential, and paying 80M a clone, while acceptable to you, is totally asymmetric for older clones. The only solution from thread starter is "make more alts!", which is a solution which she is actually opposed to for every other problem encountered in EVE.


2/3 of your post reads like a rant and there is no kind way to respond to it.




Sorry to have caused offence, it's not meant.

I was thinking about this earlier on today, and i'd like to propose the following system.

Get podded and lose ability to train skills for a set period of time due to the trauma of the brain scanning etc.

apply a cumulative afffect for repeated podding (i.e within 24 hours)

1st - podding is free
2nd - cant train skills for 1 hour.
3rd- cant train skills for 4 hours etc.
4th -cant train skills for 1 day etc.

So in other words a timer.

An alternative idea might be to slow down the training queue so that skill training goes on but at a vastly decellerated rate.

The exact penalty should be agreed upon by the Devs and the player base for repeated poddings. In this type of system, death still has a consequnce but there's no SP loss, just an automatic pause or slowdown in the skill training queue.

Costing people money who can easily afford to pay that money isn't realy a penalty which is the whole crux of the matter.

Other than that we have people with specially crafted clones skilled for just one role who may no longer be training anything in which case they won't be penalised for repeatedly being killed, but no system is perfect.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#357 - 2014-11-19 20:11:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


... or it could be intended as an ISK sink

13kr1d1 wrote:
Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones.


I have no problem witht the cost of clones. It is the nuisance and cost of implants that bother me.

I would like to see corpses being salvaged and an implant harvesting skill & tools. Just imagine the fun of trading corpses you have picked up to some guy that can dig into their heads and pull out tasty treats? Twisted

That would lower the cost of implants and help reduce the nuisance factor by having greater supplies spread about.

Further on this in game suggestions.



Supported, one man's loss should be an opportunity for another to gain.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#358 - 2014-11-19 20:16:00 UTC
I am glad it's going away.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#359 - 2014-11-19 20:19:27 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:


You might want to read back your quote pyramid, he said he didn't engage Sabres as he didn't want to lose his pod, you mocked him for not being able to get his pod out, and when he replied that bubbles don't give you much of a choice, you then followed up by telling him not to engage Sabres... you know, the action you mocked him for doing? I know on these forums "I am right, and wont back down" is every shitposters mantra, but still.


You mean the

Quote:

magic method for getting your pod out of a sabre's bubble?


Part?

Was this before or after the

Quote:
I often won't engage a gang with a sabre


part?

He obviously does engage Sabres. That's only half of the problem.

The other half of the problem is how you're spending 80m per clone but somehow losing enough clones fast enough to buy a Nyx.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#360 - 2014-11-19 21:26:25 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:



Sorry to have caused offence, it's not meant.

I was thinking about this earlier on today, and i'd like to propose the following system.

Get podded and lose ability to train skills for a set period of time due to the trauma of the brain scanning etc.

apply a cumulative afffect for repeated podding (i.e within 24 hours)

1st - podding is free
2nd - cant train skills for 1 hour.
3rd- cant train skills for 4 hours etc.
4th -cant train skills for 1 day etc.

So in other words a timer.


No offense was taken.


I'm not sure how good this proposal is since it heavily penalizes new players. Considering the cost of PLEX buys you 30 days of training, losing 1.25 of that is like paying 40M. This just created a situation where new players, already at an SP disadvantage, will never want to undock. the loss is even more than that if the player had a JC with learning implants. How would anyone put a value on lost time anyway? It really is the single resource that can't be replaced.


The idea behind the change, as far as I see it, is it reduces an element of HTFU in favor of encouraging players to undock and lose ships. If we were to prioritize the two, wouldn't you say the latter is more important?


Quote:
An alternative idea might be to slow down the training queue so that skill training goes on but at a vastly decellerated rate.

The exact penalty should be agreed upon by the Devs and the player base for repeated poddings. In this type of system, death still has a consequnce but there's no SP loss, just an automatic pause or slowdown in the skill training queue.

Costing people money who can easily afford to pay that money isn't realy a penalty which is the whole crux of the matter.

Other than that we have people with specially crafted clones skilled for just one role who may no longer be training anything in which case they won't be penalised for repeatedly being killed, but no system is perfect.



SP loss is a major bummer, because that training timer is the one thing every EVE player pays CCP for, before considering any other reasons they play. Everyone pays and plays for skill training, and in my opinion making people lose physical time is not HTFU. It is marginalizing the player's own RL time and money.


You can gain and lose ISK, but there is very little nothing you can do to recover lost training time.


Call me Joe.