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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......
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Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-11-18 20:50:04 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
And if you all would excuse me now, I've looked at and written more about mining vessels now than I did in my entire EVE career and I feel dirty now... Lol


That was a good analysis, however the mining yield is key to a lot of miners, so missing that exact figure hurts what you did,
Feel free to provide a more exact number. But as I stated: it will not change the final conclusion, unless it turns out that the Hulk actually mines 3-5 times more than the Skiff, which I doubt will be the case.... It may get 20, 30, 40 or 50% more yield, that's still not in line with the Skiff having 3-5 times the tank of a Hulk AND everything else the Skiff wins out.

Btw, that 3-5 times the tank of a Hulk is with 'comparable' fits on both. Comparable fits meaning: idiot fit (not a single tanking module or perhaps just a single shield booster to keep the 0.5 rats at bay and all yield mods), yield fit (maximum yield rigs and upgrades but with shield mods) and max tank(tank over anything else, no utility mods in mid, tank rigs and damage control in low). If you would compare the 'idiot' Hulk to a max tank Skiff, it's more like 12+ times the tank on the SKiff.


Quote:

When people here say that the Skiff is too powerful for a solo ganker, all I can say is tough, for many years even the best tanked mining ship could be ganked by a single destroyer, but most important in all of this is that there are enough mining ships that a solo ganker can cut his teeth on. But the Skiff is something he has to play as a team to get to and there is no issue with that ata all.

Ppl complaining that the Skiff is too powerful for a single ganker are whining. It should be as that's it's main purpose right now, being a hard nut to crack. Again, the TANK on the Skiff is not what most ppl here have an issue with, it's the fact that it's just too good in all other areas at the same time in general and yield in particular.

As for what ships are most popular, did you look at the sec status of the systems you visited. In the 0.5 and 0.6 systems that I visit, it's procurer and skiff galore. Macks, hulks, covetors and retrievers are the exception. Only in 0.7 you will start to see more of those and even there Skiffs and procs are abundant.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2014-11-18 22:29:54 UTC
It was to address a similar issue as the OP found - and possibly be an anti-bot measure that players could work to apply themselves that I posted this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5221444#post5221444

But I've been shot down........

It was only a suggestion to try and deal with an issue.Smile

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#143 - 2014-11-19 01:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
And if you all would excuse me now, I've looked at and written more about mining vessels now than I did in my entire EVE career and I feel dirty now... Lol


That was a good analysis, however the mining yield is key to a lot of miners, so missing that exact figure hurts what you did,
Feel free to provide a more exact number. But as I stated: it will not change the final conclusion, unless it turns out that the Hulk actually mines 3-5 times more than the Skiff, which I doubt will be the case.... It may get 20, 30, 40 or 50% more yield, that's still not in line with the Skiff having 3-5 times the tank of a Hulk AND everything else the Skiff wins out.

Btw, that 3-5 times the tank of a Hulk is with 'comparable' fits on both. Comparable fits meaning: idiot fit (not a single tanking module or perhaps just a single shield booster to keep the 0.5 rats at bay and all yield mods), yield fit (maximum yield rigs and upgrades but with shield mods) and max tank(tank over anything else, no utility mods in mid, tank rigs and damage control in low). If you would compare the 'idiot' Hulk to a max tank Skiff, it's more like 12+ times the tank on the SKiff.


Quote:

When people here say that the Skiff is too powerful for a solo ganker, all I can say is tough, for many years even the best tanked mining ship could be ganked by a single destroyer, but most important in all of this is that there are enough mining ships that a solo ganker can cut his teeth on. But the Skiff is something he has to play as a team to get to and there is no issue with that ata all.

Ppl complaining that the Skiff is too powerful for a single ganker are whining. It should be as that's it's main purpose right now, being a hard nut to crack. Again, the TANK on the Skiff is not what most ppl here have an issue with, it's the fact that it's just too good in all other areas at the same time in general and yield in particular.

As for what ships are most popular, did you look at the sec status of the systems you visited. In the 0.5 and 0.6 systems that I visit, it's procurer and skiff galore. Macks, hulks, covetors and retrievers are the exception. Only in 0.7 you will start to see more of those and even there Skiffs and procs are abundant.
Yeah, I must be good/bad at choosing systems, because I have yet to see a skiff in my home system that wasn't flown by me.
I'll run the yield numbers now, rather than isk/hour (because isk/hour changes)
Also, how'd you get a skiff with max tank that doesn't (nearly)cap out on pg?
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#144 - 2014-11-19 01:19:29 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
It was to address a similar issue as the OP found - and possibly be an anti-bot measure that players could work to apply themselves that I posted this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5221444#post5221444

But I've been shot down........

It was only a suggestion to try and deal with an issue.Smile
The people in this thread don't have a problem with miners, they have a problem with the Skiff.
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#145 - 2014-11-19 01:22:19 UTC
Still loving this thread... the nerf-it crowing is simply marvelous.

The Skiff (and the Procurer) are PvP ships, with mining lasers and ore-holds. The sooner you stop thinking of them as gankable meat, the sooner you will actually be able to adequately deal with them. Because they are in the hands of what many of you consider 'care-bears', you feel it necessary to cry about it being OP and want the nerf-hammer. Boohoo.

How would you deal with this ship if you considered it a 'combat ship'? It may have the tank of a battleship, but it has nowhere near the damage potential or force-multiplier effect that an equivalent BS has. Look at the Skiff killboards from the opposite side of things; how many kills does this ship have, and what is it's ratio of kill/loss? You will see a marginally effective PvP ship, which is much better in fleets due to it's drone bonuses.

The only change I could endorse, reasonably, is to reduce the ore hold to 12k (from 15k). That puts it in perfect alignment with the other exhumers, considering the role this ship was intended for.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#146 - 2014-11-19 01:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Assuming perfect. Skills, no drones implants or rigs, 1DC2 and the rest MLU2. 2 minute round trip to station. No boosts.
Skiff - 54399m3/hour
Mackinaw - 58436m3/hour
Hulk - 61558m3/hour.
However, if we assume no travel time and perfect boosts (orca in belt tractoring jet cans, freighter hauling.)
Skiff - 105182m3/hour
Mackinaw - 105182m3/hour
Hulk - 137344m3/hour
So yeah.
The Hulk gets 1.3* more yield but 4* less tank. Is it 4? Or 5? Who cares. Lots less, anyway.
Crystalline Entity
Black Dragon PHP
#147 - 2014-11-19 09:24:41 UTC
Gatecamp skiff

That is all
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-11-19 11:04:01 UTC
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Yeah, I must be good/bad at choosing systems, because I have yet to see a skiff in my home system that wasn't flown by me.
I'll run the yield numbers now, rather than isk/hour (because isk/hour changes)
Also, how'd you get a skiff with max tank that doesn't (nearly)cap out on pg?


You can relay those sytem names to your local New Order agent and we'll see what we can do about that. Roll

[Skiff, SKIFF]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


148,5K against void. 151 against CNA. At all level five skills no implants needed even. Yes, those are faction modules but at prices around 8 million they are totally viable to put on a 165 million hull, same goes for the T2 rigs. If you have a lvl 5 skilled squad booster EHP goes to 161.5k against void and 164.5 against CNA. Expecting your average hauler support will have at least lvl 3 boosting skills. And that's without any shield bonus that could come from Orca-support.

Power grid: only TWENTY used out of 62.5 at all level 5 skills. Again: what does the Skiff NEED all that PG for?

In conclusion, anyone dedicated to tanking can quite easily get to 160K+ tanks without making your ship a bling boat while still maintaining Mack level yield and beating the Mack on all other fronts cept for ore bay, which is quite irrelevant in most situations because of hauler support.

I just threw this fit together quickly and it's quite possible that it can even be improved slightly without resorting to very expensive exotic deadspace/officer/faction modules. As this fit stands though, I'd say the Skiff is a real Beast.

Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-11-19 11:09:26 UTC
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Assuming perfect. Skills, no drones implants or rigs, 1DC2 and the rest MLU2. 2 minute round trip to station. No boosts.
Skiff - 54399m3/hour
Mackinaw - 58436m3/hour
Hulk - 61558m3/hour.
However, if we assume no travel time and perfect boosts (orca in belt tractoring jet cans, freighter hauling.)
Skiff - 105182m3/hour
Mackinaw - 105182m3/hour
Hulk - 137344m3/hour
So yeah.
The Hulk gets 1.3* more yield but 4* less tank. Is it 4? Or 5? Who cares. Lots less, anyway.

Ah, so it's 30% instead of 15%. Like I predicted: does not change my conclusion.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#150 - 2014-11-19 11:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Yeah, I must be good/bad at choosing systems, because I have yet to see a skiff in my home system that wasn't flown by me.
I'll run the yield numbers now, rather than isk/hour (because isk/hour changes)
Also, how'd you get a skiff with max tank that doesn't (nearly)cap out on pg?


You can relay those sytem names to your local New Order agent and we'll see what we can do about that. Roll

[Skiff, SKIFF]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


148,5K against void. 151 against CNA. At all level five skills no implants needed even. Yes, those are faction modules but at prices around 8 million they are totally viable to put on a 165 million hull, same goes for the T2 rigs. If you have a lvl 5 skilled squad booster EHP goes to 161.5k against void and 164.5 against CNA. Expecting your average hauler support will have at least lvl 3 boosting skills. And that's without any shield bonus that could come from Orca-support.

Power grid: only TWENTY used out of 62.5 at all level 5 skills. Again: what does the Skiff NEED all that PG for?

In conclusion, anyone dedicated to tanking can quite easily get to 160K+ tanks without making your ship a bling boat while still maintaining Mack level yield and beating the Mack on all other fronts cept for ore bay, which is quite irrelevant in most situations because of hauler support.

I just threw this fit together quickly and it's quite possible that it can even be improved slightly without resorting to very expensive exotic deadspace/officer/faction modules. As this fit stands though, I'd say the Skiff is a real Beast.

Oh, wow. Much better than mine.. I was using 2*MSE and 3*AIF. 116k omni/119k kintherm. Where do I find my local new order agent? I suppose there's one normally sitting like 7 jumps away in a hub..
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#151 - 2014-11-19 11:16:32 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
Assuming perfect. Skills, no drones implants or rigs, 1DC2 and the rest MLU2. 2 minute round trip to station. No boosts.
Skiff - 54399m3/hour
Mackinaw - 58436m3/hour
Hulk - 61558m3/hour.
However, if we assume no travel time and perfect boosts (orca in belt tractoring jet cans, freighter hauling.)
Skiff - 105182m3/hour
Mackinaw - 105182m3/hour
Hulk - 137344m3/hour
So yeah.
The Hulk gets 1.3* more yield but 4* less tank. Is it 4? Or 5? Who cares. Lots less, anyway.

Ah, so it's 30% instead of 15%. Like I predicted: does not change my conclusion.
Yeah. Skiff is awesome. I'd be fine with a nerf as long as it's not too bad..
Thomas Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2014-11-19 13:31:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bagatur I wrote:

As to the skiff itself, the hull is like 160mil. I am not sure about the fittings, but lets stick to the hull price only.


No, actually, let's not. Price is not a balancing point. And linking to that blog doesn't help your case either.

So, I would love to hear you explain why you think pricetag means that you should be immune to the actions of other players who outnumber you so severely.

Because that kind of seems unbalanced to me.


Gevlon when he was ganking was incredibly good at what he was doing. The ganking guide itself is good and I've seen elements of it copied without acknowledging the source.

Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#153 - 2014-11-19 13:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Thomas Mayaki wrote:

Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.


Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.

I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.

This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
ForTheEmpire2014
Doomheim
#154 - 2014-11-19 15:29:10 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.

I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.

This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.


Yes, rebalance the other exhumers, I certainly endorse that idea +1
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#155 - 2014-11-19 15:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Black Pedro wrote:
Thomas Mayaki wrote:

Skiffs aren't actually immune from ganking you know and if price is not a balancing point I would suggest the gankers use brutixes/talos to gank skiffs rather than the cheap catalysts which they mainly use now.


Skiffs are of course not literally immune, but they are effectively immune. Your suggestion is appreciated, but no ganker is going to commit the cost of multiple Brutix or Talos ships for an unprofitable gank. The Skiff is already quite unprofitable (the expected loot drop comes nowhere near the cost of the gank ships) to gank with Catalysts, and this only gets worse as you use more expensive gank ships. This unprofitability is why the Skiff is effectively immune from ganking, and why only 4 have been lost this month to suicide ganks in all of New Eden.

I guarantee, and this comes from an experienced ganker's prospective, the only way you are going to loose one of these to a suicide gank is if you **** someone off enough to absorb the loss, and go to the non-trivial effort to gather several gankers together to target you specifically, or you are astronomically unlucky and are exploded by someone with deep SRP pockets (like CODE.) trying to make a point. Ok, you could also do something extremely stupid like pimp it out with a billion ISK of faction mods and make yourself a target.

This is why they don't die. And since the yield is practical the same (Mack), or only slightly less (Hulk), this is exactly why you should fly only Skiffs (or a Procurer if you don't have the skills). But this is also why the other exhumers need a balancing look so there is actually a choice in which one to use in highsec.


You said it as it is, good post, personally I would suggest that they buff the yield on the Hulk and Mac a bit in comparison, I use a Skiff because tank comes first so don't care, but if CCP want to nerf the yield on the Skiff I will live with that too. But I do not want the tank nerfed, because it has a role in 0.0 and in low sec where its abilities are very much needed and I also like to mine in a ship with a tank because I hate being easy to kill.

EDIT: Just checked the belts in the systems I am in and there was a Skiff and a Mackinaw in the belts, there have been ganks in the system so...

EDIT 2: The ore bay is an issue, but only for a sub-set of people, people using one or two accounts and not in a corp mining fleet, I have two accounts so there is no value in running an Orca, so I use two Skiffs, I would be better off running a Mackinaw on the two accounts, but tank is king for me so I don't.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#156 - 2014-11-19 15:53:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Remove auto repeat from mining equipment, remove ewar from concord and increase concord response times for each sec by 10s. All problems solved.


Remove auto-repeat from all the things! No more repeating guns/missile launchers, no more repeating hardeners. Man Mode everywhere!


Does that mean the person that can click the most buttons has more "skill?" Also ahahahahahahahaha at the rest of the highsec hypocrites pouring into the thread.


Just hull fit it then stick guns and DC for F1 & F2! Then laugh and fly circles around people while they try and activate 6 - 12 modules while trying to pilot.

[SARCASM MODE OFF]

JUSTK is recruiting
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2014-11-19 16:37:03 UTC
Should the Skiff keep it's quite insane tank (which I am ok with in principle) it should be hit so hard with the nerf bat on it's other traits that it's fanny will be glowing red till X-mass 2015.

I said 2/3 of the mack yield b4, but after my more indepth analysis I think it should be more like 1/3 of the yield of the mack. The mack will at that point have 3 times the yield of a skiff and the Hulk about 4 times. That's much more in line with how the tank on the three exhumers compare.

To please the 'The Skiff was made for null-sec'-crowd (which might have been it's original purpose but is debatable at present): give it a 3X modifier on ores that are only found outside of highsec. That way it retains functionality in 0.0 but loses a big chunk of appeal in high sec.

PS: even if the Skiff should get it's tank halved, it would still be passed over by the vast majority of the ganking crowd. The reality is that you don't need much tank at all to be an unatractive target to gankers. If you can tank 2 catalysts, you're safe from every solo ganker and everyone running dual gank accounts, I'm guessing that's like 95-99% of all gankers. If you doubt my words, go look at the killboards at what kind of mining barges/exhumers get ganked. 90% will be the poorly or non-tanked ones.
Kathtrine
My Dot Corp
#158 - 2014-11-19 16:37:48 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Are Skiffs overpowered insofar as given a certain scenario they are too difficult to move on or destroy Question

I (ganker tears here).


Skiffs are working as intended.
You cry ganker tears.

Thank you for the QQ

[b]If your griefing about EvE online and still paying for it, your hooked and CCP has done thier job.

Now go blow somebodies ship up and stop whining about whatever your are lacking.[/b]
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#159 - 2014-11-19 17:16:31 UTC
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
Still loving this thread... the nerf-it crowing is simply marvelous.

The Skiff (and the Procurer) are PvP ships, with mining lasers and ore-holds. The sooner you stop thinking of them as gankable meat, the sooner you will actually be able to adequately deal with them. Because they are in the hands of what many of you consider 'care-bears', you feel it necessary to cry about it being OP and want the nerf-hammer. Boohoo.

How would you deal with this ship if you considered it a 'combat ship'? It may have the tank of a battleship, but it has nowhere near the damage potential or force-multiplier effect that an equivalent BS has. Look at the Skiff killboards from the opposite side of things; how many kills does this ship have, and what is it's ratio of kill/loss? You will see a marginally effective PvP ship, which is much better in fleets due to it's drone bonuses.

The only change I could endorse, reasonably, is to reduce the ore hold to 12k (from 15k). That puts it in perfect alignment with the other exhumers, considering the role this ship was intended for.



As others have said you don't actually see many Skiffs in space mining. This is probably partly due to it being quite an expensive ship and also that they do not realise how good/overpowered it is.

Regarding several comments about the size of the ore hold in the Skiff I don't think this is the problem. More often than not the Skiff is used in a fleet with an Orca and/or hauler so changing the ore hold in either direction doesn't matter.

We need to be looking at mining yield and/or the base EHP and/or the drone damage bonuses. Personally, and probably for my own needs, I would like to see the EHP or tanking ability reduced. But the 'sensible' peoples consensus appears to be that a reduction in the mining yield would be better.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#160 - 2014-11-19 17:25:23 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Should the Skiff keep it's quite insane tank (which I am ok with in principle) it should be hit so hard with the nerf bat on it's other traits that it's ***** will be glowing red till X-mass 2015.

I said 2/3 of the mack yield b4, but after my more indepth analysis I think it should be more like 1/3 of the yield of the mack. The mack will at that point have 3 times the yield of a skiff and the Hulk about 4 times. That's much more in line with how the tank on the three exhumers compare.

To please the 'The Skiff was made for null-sec'-crowd (which might have been it's original purpose but is debatable at present): give it a 3X modifier on ores that are only found outside of highsec. That way it retains functionality in 0.0 but loses a big chunk of appeal in high sec.

PS: even if the Skiff should get it's tank halved, it would still be passed over by the vast majority of the ganking crowd. The reality is that you don't need much tank at all to be an unatractive target to gankers. If you can tank 2 catalysts, you're safe from every solo ganker and everyone running dual gank accounts, I'm guessing that's like 95-99% of all gankers. If you doubt my words, go look at the killboards at what kind of mining barges/exhumers get ganked. 90% will be the poorly or non-tanked ones.


I think I like this idea and will use it as a basis for my proposal on the F&I board. Smile