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Make Bowhead worth the ISK (and other ship carriers)
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Sentenced 1989
#1 - 2014-11-18 00:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentenced 1989
Ok, so main tagline on Bowhead is that it's supposed to help incursion runners and those who are moving while doing PVE and need to carry battleship(s) and some other ships. TL:DR at the bottom.

Main annoyance right now with Orca will translate into Bowhead as well. Inability to hold in cargohold of the ship anything that isn't considered an charge.

So lets look for incursion scenario (applicable to Orca and in most cases to Bowhead as well).
Incursions vary in fits, sometimes you run Scimitar with 5 links, sometimes you take 4 links + AB, sometimes you take codebreaker. For me personally, I have always 4 link scimi and I don't refit. Simple reason being while I can put mobile depot in scimitar and refit in space, I can't hold scimitar related modules in cargo hold when moving it with Orca. I use Orca because I have claymore for boosting as well that I use with my alt. If you put something else in it, like spare ammo, some frigate or what not, all the extra modules get mixed up since you can't keep them in related ships cargohold.

So main goes with battleships, modules in cargo hold, travel fitted, gets to destination, refits in station or in space and puts travel fit back in the cargohold so I don't mix up modules, forget something later and to keep my assets clean and tidy.
Alt takes scimitar that my main can use at destination when needed (battleship docks) and alt grabs out his claymore to boost.
In case I forget to move extra modules from cargo hold of the orca into the scimitar, I have to dock again to move it over so I choose not to have refits for my scimitar, because fu** it, I'm lazy to keep track of excess modules.

Also, Ventures are god given. We have been using them from day one. They are great since they can carry up to 15 stacks needed to finish NMC site. However you have to put the ore out each time before putting it in ship maintenance bay. But there is one great thing, venture takes about 27k space and you can leave the ore in it and put in fleet hangar and have it ready to go every time. Unfortunately you can't do that with other bigger ships.

Same applies to hauling blops fuel for hotdrops, you can put cyno frigate with ozone loaded into the fleet hangar and don't worry about later forgetting to move the ozone from orca cargo hold into frigate cargohold.

Also applies to frigates you are trying to move (like bomber wing with bomb launchers in high, mobile depot + probe launcher in cargohold). You can't, since you have to take all 10 of the probe launchers out of each bomber and then at destination you have to put them back in each bomber.

All in all TL:DR
Can we please get Bowhead to use fleet hangar instead of ship maintenance hangar, or simply remove the cargo ban on non-charges? Also maybe move this feature to carriers/orcas as well so we can keep related extra fitting modules inside the relevant ship?

Also, very good idea posted bellow:
xttz wrote:

Allow ships to carry any cargo* while inside an SMA, up to their unmodified cargo limit.

So in order to put a Megathron in your Bowhead's SMA it cannot contain more than 675m3 worth of ammo/mods/etc - regardless of cargo expanders. A Miasmos would only hold 550m3 of anything, no matter what rigs or skills you had when you packed it.
Only native cargo space would count toward this max limit, so haulers with any special hangar types would not benefit from them. An Occator could throw 5000m3 into any combination of cargo or fleet hanger, but not more than 5km3 in total.


*except other containers, plastic wraps, etc

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-11-18 01:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
The non-charge ban for ships in maintenance bays was put in place so that people could not put haulers loaded with equipment/minerals/ores and use them as an additional cargobay... for balance reasons.

Example: a Titan's ship maintenance bay can carry 12 Deep Space Transports for a potential cargospace of 744 thousand cubic meters plus 100 thousand cubic meters in the fleet hanger (enough to make Freighters blush).
Carriers would be able to hold 2 Deep Space transports for a combined cargospace of 124 thousand plus the carriers' 10 thousand cubic meter fleet hanger (I would never have to use Black Frog ever again).


And a fleet hanger doesn't hold assembled ships. It is simply another cargobay that a fleet can also access.


Looking at the stats for the Bowhead... you have a general cargo bay that can hold 4000 cubic meters. That is more than enough to fit a limited assortment of extra modules and ammo. Not enough to move an entire hanger's worth of modules (that is still an Orca's or Freighter's job).

How did you Veterans start?
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#3 - 2014-11-18 02:05:52 UTC
as mentioned before its balancing...

furthermore the bowhead has 4000m3 cargo space so you can put in quit a bit of modules and it also has lows to increase this. if thats not enough fly alt with an industrial ship

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2014-11-18 07:01:41 UTC
Uses a five-link Scimitar and can't use cargo containers, makes suggestions.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#5 - 2014-11-18 07:09:49 UTC
Use small cargo cans , label with each ship name, problem solved.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#6 - 2014-11-18 08:36:17 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
And a fleet hanger doesn't hold assembled ships. It is simply another cargobay that a fleet can also access.

A Fleet Hangar can hold assembled ships; however the respective volumes mean that most arrays are a frigate and a half.
I have frequently thrown an assembled Shuttle or travel fitted Jag into a Fleet Hangar where I need to move a couple of larger ships.
Sentenced 1989
#7 - 2014-11-18 17:39:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
The non-charge ban for ships in maintenance bays was put in place so that people could not put haulers loaded with equipment/minerals/ores and use them as an additional cargobay... for balance reasons.

Example: a Titan's ship maintenance bay can carry 16 Impels for a potential cargospace of 960 thousand cubic meters (enough to make Freighters blush). Carriers would be able to hold 3 for a combined cargospace of 180 thousand (I would never have to use Black Frog ever again).


So remove the ability to put industrials in it then (or just industrials can't be loaded inside), less ships/modules affected?

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2014-11-18 17:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Jacob Holland wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
And a fleet hanger doesn't hold assembled ships. It is simply another cargobay that a fleet can also access.

A Fleet Hangar can hold assembled ships; however the respective volumes mean that most arrays are a frigate and a half.
I have frequently thrown an assembled Shuttle or travel fitted Jag into a Fleet Hangar where I need to move a couple of larger ships.

How interesting! They must have ninja changed this at some point! I distinctly remember this not being possible.

Sentenced 1989 wrote:
So remove the ability to put industrials in it then (or just industrials can't be loaded inside), less ships/modules affected?

So how will you then be able to move industrial ships outside of flying them?

Bear in mind, Industrial ships are ships in their own right. In this way, they are no different from any combat ship. They just happen to have larger cargoholds (or specialized bays like Black Ops).
If you prevent Industrials from being filled up when in the Maintenance Bay... it applies to all ships.

Plus, it is never a good idea to create too many mechanical exceptions. It just makes things too convoluted.

How did you Veterans start?
Sentenced 1989
#9 - 2014-11-18 17:49:28 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
And a fleet hanger doesn't hold assembled ships. It is simply another cargobay that a fleet can also access.

A Fleet Hangar can hold assembled ships; however the respective volumes mean that most arrays are a frigate and a half.
I have frequently thrown an assembled Shuttle or travel fitted Jag into a Fleet Hangar where I need to move a couple of larger ships.

How interesting! They must have ninja changed this at some point! I distinctly remember this not being possible.


It is possible for last 2 years afaik, since I got my first orca, like I said it's blessing for frigates since you don't have to worry about that spare sebo or fuel, or whatnot...

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2014-11-18 19:07:07 UTC
+1

Years ago the main method of bulk transport via jump drive was to fill up a bunch of haulers in a carrier's SMA. Combined with mineral compression you could move pretty insane amounts of cargo very quickly. CCP didn't like this for obvious reasons, and so alongside the introduction Rorquals/JFs they added this restriction to 'encourage' players to use more appropriate tools for the job.

Years later we have an EVE where mineral compression has been consigned to history, JFs and Rorquals are the industrial tool of choice, and the ability to rapidly cross the map has been drastically reduced. Yet we still have this rather heavy-handed and crude restriction in place that affects quality of life for all sorts of players. You don't have to look far outside empire space to find someone who forgot to replace the ozone in their cyno ship after relocating their stuff, or who has misplaced some vital module for an alternative fit. That's not to mention the frustration of dropping multiple ships into an SMA only to find you have to pick through their cargo one by one looking for that random piece of trit.

While there's still somewhat of a need for this restriction, the old implementation is flawed and outdated. Fortunately there is a simple solution to keep everyone happy:

Allow ships to carry any cargo* while inside an SMA, up to their unmodified cargo limit.

So in order to put a Megathron in your Bowhead's SMA it cannot contain more than 675m3 worth of ammo/mods/etc - regardless of cargo expanders. A Miasmos would only hold 550m3 of anything, no matter what rigs or skills you had when you packed it.
Only native cargo space would count toward this max limit, so haulers with any special hangar types would not benefit from them. An Occator could throw 5000m3 into any combination of cargo or fleet hanger, but not more than 5km3 in total.


*except other containers, plastic wraps, etc
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-11-18 19:31:48 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Use small cargo cans , label with each ship name, problem solved.


This works fine.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-11-19 01:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Maybe its me and how I do things but....

My mission runners when moving are travel fit t2 mods. All good shiny mods pulled. I move the t2 fit bs and head back to move mods in a BR.

Adds say 30-40 minutes worst case with the extra trip. But as I don't make say 500 mil (probably more, haven't priced check in a while tbh) in 40 minutes, it balances out. Especially considering some pve rides the mods are more than ship lol.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#13 - 2014-11-19 01:34:12 UTC
-1
Mainly because (and I'm amazed that this hasn't been brought up yet) the cargo hold of ships inside of an SMA cannot be scanned.
Same with fittings (and that's already bad enough).

So basically, you could put a frigate with 100 plexes inside of it, and no one would even be able to know (obviously there's better ways of moving it but still, the point stands).
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2014-11-19 08:58:41 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
-1
Mainly because (and I'm amazed that this hasn't been brought up yet) the cargo hold of ships inside of an SMA cannot be scanned.
Same with fittings (and that's already bad enough).

So basically, you could put a frigate with 100 plexes inside of it, and no one would even be able to know (obviously there's better ways of moving it but still, the point stands).


You can currently move as many Estemel's Invulns as you like by fitting them to Merlins inside an Orca. How is this any different?
Sentenced 1989
#15 - 2014-11-19 13:14:42 UTC
xttz wrote:

Allow ships to carry any cargo* while inside an SMA, up to their unmodified cargo limit.

So in order to put a Megathron in your Bowhead's SMA it cannot contain more than 675m3 worth of ammo/mods/etc - regardless of cargo expanders. A Miasmos would only hold 550m3 of anything, no matter what rigs or skills you had when you packed it.
Only native cargo space would count toward this max limit, so haulers with any special hangar types would not benefit from them. An Occator could throw 5000m3 into any combination of cargo or fleet hanger, but not more than 5km3 in total.


*except other containers, plastic wraps, etc


Agreed, will put this up in original thread as well.

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Sentenced 1989
#16 - 2014-11-25 13:43:06 UTC
Sentenced 1989
#17 - 2014-12-02 08:43:37 UTC
Bumping up for visibility

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2014-12-02 20:27:41 UTC
this was introdiced so people will not carry lot of cargo load in iterons V's ^^ would like to carry mods in cargo but i can see this thing not a bused so yea, guess it will not change
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#19 - 2014-12-03 00:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
As implemented, they can be made cost inefficient to gank with anything but well skilled talos fleets, which are uncommon, even haulling t2 fit pirate BS or marauders. Now, you want to leave the bling fits on and make them gank-inefficient, then its gonna be impossible to actually gank on any reasonable time scale, requiring very careful fitting and 25+ pilots.

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And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-12-03 00:18:30 UTC
I often want to move a small number of ships. Would be nice to have a subcap ship hauler, industrial price and able to haul just a few ships. 750,000m3 would be plenty.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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