These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Rhea Frigate Holes

First post
Author
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#21 - 2014-11-17 06:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Kyra Kurai wrote:

In summery:
I feel the new frig holes present a golden opportunity. For the cost of a couple of new deployables and some moons in holes where nobody could even haul in a small tower (the closest I was able to get was a Phobos with a cargo of 1949m3), a completely unique venue could be added to the EVE universe.
Regards,
~Kyra



actually, the only thing you'd need from CCP is for frigate only WHs to ONLY connect to other systems via jump-mass limited wormholes.

everything else is already possible without new deployables and with the current mass limits. You had the right idea with the Phobos, try the EFT warrior'ing again, with a Devoter.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

chris elliot
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#22 - 2014-11-17 17:11:00 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Please dont encourage this frig space garbage even more....
Have some self respect and fly some real ships.



No one seems to have any anymore. :/
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#23 - 2014-11-17 18:23:55 UTC
Brainstorming frigate holes right now. Tldr warning fyi.

Assuming these are here to stay, I want to list out the issues as I see them atm.

1) wolf rayet effect (has to be better options)
2) stuff to do in the frig hole?
3) living in a frig hole.
4) finding frig holes.
5) transport through frig holes.

1) wolf rayet effect. This needs to go and be replaced with something viable for frigates and destroyers. I would create a new effect. Inside the shattered frigate holes, has a White Dwarf Star with a similar effect to the wolf rayet, except buff hit points on shields, armor and hull, vs just a armor resist, and remove the Dps increase (maybe add in a 3rd effect). Fights should last longer, not be a alpha the field first race. This should also give the ships enough ehp to survive sleeper sites without being max skilled. This also returns shield frigates to this hole.

2) Stuff to do in the frig hole? people have been asking for pi, pos,s, etc. that isn't needed. You have sleepers, exploration sites, gas sites. Assuming frigates can do them all, that should be enough activity. I would consider increasing the isk per hour in these places. Easiest way is to add in c5 and c6 wormhole gasses (sleepers adjusted down in scale capable for a frigate to do), and put in micro escalations (keep it simple, in each site, spawn an extra wave of enemies for each extra person that shows up, maximum 1 extra wave. Meaning you aren't penalized if you bring a buddy, but you can't farm it endlessly. Isk bonus for a friend, isk negative for 3 or more friends. The other issue here is that to do combat sites, you would need a probing ship. The majority of the probers are exploration ships and bombers. Consider making the combat sites all warpable so at least it doesn't become mandatory to equip a depot, probe launcher and probes for a combat frigate.

3) living in a frig hole. Some people will do this. People forget that a secure container cannot be probed out (can store your fat Lewts in there). It can be dscanned out but that's a good deal of effort. With yurts and cans, living in one is possible, just highly difficult. At this point I think it's ok, least for now. See below for some ideas and concepts for this.

4) finding a frig hole. I do believe this is the more difficult part of these new holes. Ive had a few concepts of making these more accessible (everything from a single scanner sweep systemwide would make them show up, from just removing the probe part and make the signatures show up on overview automatically without needing to probe at all (very anti wormhole)). I do believe the main issue with these will be finding them. There are over 2500 wormhole systems. There are 25 of these. The possible rarity of finding one is somewhat redicilous, especially since they cannot be rolled for. It's not my decision but unless you want these used, they will have to be relatively easy to find. How and in what way I do not know.

5) transports through frigholes. There is a possible golden opportunity being missed here, and that is transit through these holes. Currently, only ships at or under 2 million mass will fit into these holes (to prevent larger ships from going in). I do believe some larger ships should be able to go in, but still non cruiser ships. You can increase its max mass to 9,000,000 and keep all cruisers out.

5a) ice mining. Unless you intend to introduce ice lasers, let the venture ice mine and reduce ice volume by 900, it's pretty pointless to put ice in here. But if you do want ice here, you'd have to allow at least a procurer in here, but it's mass is way too high. You would have to cut it's mass by at least 11,000,000.

5b). One of the transport ships should have access to this hole. The best option would probably be the deep space transport. It's tanky enough to survive without melting, and can't perma cloak (vulnerable to bubbles).

5c) a 3rd option is a combined pirate transport and static base ship. Think of it as a mini orca base station vessel. Call it "the whale". It's a small transport platform with no high slots, but a ton of sensor strength (think a yurt on steroids, highly resistant to combat probing". It would have a small Sma (enough to store 2 frigates and a destroyer, max at roughly 80,000m3) ,small storage bay, small fleet hanger (5,000 m3, you would have to change the repackage size of the strategic cruisers to 5,500), and possibly a ore gas storage bay for your scavenging needs. +2 warp resists, micro jump drive equipable, interdiction nullified (can fly through bubbles), align times a disaster (similar to the current dst), high resist profile like the dst. Something like this meant as a mobile base for people, cept the mobile base is a character (it's an idea, and that idea is to provide transit for people using dst's, and create a frigate capable mobile base for those nomads out there).

I'm trying to think of addresses to the multitude of issues these may have. It's a bit of a brainstorm on the possible future uses.

Yaay!!!!

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#24 - 2014-11-18 01:13:20 UTC
See, this is what we need in the debate about these holes.

1) I agree the W-R C6 effect is dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumbitty-dumb. But Fozzie is lazy and is being slab-handed here, thinking no one will use frig holes unless they have overblown reasons to do so.

Like I said, i would be happy to at least see C6 level effects for all these holes. I've been playing around on PYFA - C6 Cataclysmics do not make inquisitor/navitas OP; RR tank goes up to double, and capacitor is a breeze, but in a frig fight positioning is key for these little ships, so it's really, really easy to get wrong-footed with frig logi.

C6 Pulsar is of course a bit ridiculous for ASB Hawks, but as anyone knows who has visited lowsec in the past 2 years, ASB hawks in k-space can be ridiculous enough as it is. people clue in fairly quickly, and don't engage. Succubi in C6 Pulsar as pretty sweet. C6 BH it's even better, obviously, just like an AB Dramiel. Worms do well in everything bar the C6 W-R, as you'd expect.

Destroyer wise, C6 Pulsar, Magnetar, Cataclysmic and Black Hole favour the usual suspects, ie; the good destroyers. The only dessie worth mentioning as being advantageous beyond the obvious is the Dragoon, for Pulsars, as it's as close as you'll get to a Bhaalgorn without dumping 5x the ISK on a Cruor.

The bad destroyers are just going to be even worse in C6 W-R. Corax? I can't even laugh, it's so pathetic.

2) Well, this again boils down to spider-tanking RR Af's or bringing logi frigates. The only advantage of the C6 W-R effect over anything else is the sig radius bonus to assist in frigates not being alpha'd off the field by the sentry towers if they don't get transversal up fast enough. Since that's entirely down to client lag while trying to load the nebulae, well, not much to be done about that.

But you are right - there's no point putting ice in these holes. You can't even get anything that can mine the ice. So either a new ice mining frigate, or tweaking the mackinaw mass to let it in.

3) Agree. If you want to live like a hobo, you can do it.

4) I don't particularly see this as a problem. I wanted to find a C4 with X877-N766/C247 Wolf Rayet to move into when the C4's were getting a second static added. So we seeded alts into 6 holes which had X877, C247 or N766's, over the four weeks leading up to Hyperion, and we waited. Eventually we realised we missed the random number generator, so settled for a no-effect X+N hole. My point is, its hard to find the unicorn holes as it is now, so people have a marketplace for this, and
people pay ISK to oother people to be shown in to the hole they want. it will be the same with these systems.

5) It's irrelevant reducing the packaged size of a strat cruiser unless the cargo bay can get over 5,000m3 - you can't launch a ship from a fleet hangar. So, unless you can somehow get 5,000m into a frigate or dessie hull, no one's bringing anything bigger in anyway. FYI, cargo dragoon is 1350m3.

It is worth having a debate over whether the mining barges should be as big as they are, mostly around C1 access. It is a bit odd that Exhumers can't fit into a C1 hole. In order to get a barge of any kind through a frig hole we would need a fair bit of surgery on the mass. It's a bit limited, and odd, that HICs can squeeze through, though that'd cool anyway....

I expect that Fozzie can try his roleplay hat on and ORE can come up with a mining destroyer capable of chipping away at blocks of ice. Maybe call it the Narwhal.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#25 - 2014-11-18 12:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Trinkets friend wrote:
See, this is what we need in the debate about these holes.

1) I agree the W-R C6 effect is dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumbitty-dumb. But Fozzie is lazy and is being slab-handed here, thinking no one will use frig holes unless they have overblown reasons to do so.

Like I said, i would be happy to at least see C6 level effects for all these holes. I've been playing around on PYFA - C6 Cataclysmics do not make inquisitor/navitas OP; RR tank goes up to double, and capacitor is a breeze, but in a frig fight positioning is key for these little ships, so it's really, really easy to get wrong-footed with frig logi.

C6 Pulsar is of course a bit ridiculous for ASB Hawks, but as anyone knows who has visited lowsec in the past 2 years, ASB hawks in k-space can be ridiculous enough as it is. people clue in fairly quickly, and don't engage. Succubi in C6 Pulsar as pretty sweet. C6 BH it's even better, obviously, just like an AB Dramiel. Worms do well in everything bar the C6 W-R, as you'd expect.

Destroyer wise, C6 Pulsar, Magnetar, Cataclysmic and Black Hole favour the usual suspects, ie; the good destroyers. The only dessie worth mentioning as being advantageous beyond the obvious is the Dragoon, for Pulsars, as it's as close as you'll get to a Bhaalgorn without dumping 5x the ISK on a Cruor.

The bad destroyers are just going to be even worse in C6 W-R. Corax? I can't even laugh, it's so pathetic.

2) Well, this again boils down to spider-tanking RR Af's or bringing logi frigates. The only advantage of the C6 W-R effect over anything else is the sig radius bonus to assist in frigates not being alpha'd off the field by the sentry towers if they don't get transversal up fast enough. Since that's entirely down to client lag while trying to load the nebulae, well, not much to be done about that.


But you are right - there's no point putting ice in these holes. You can't even get anything that can mine the ice. So either a new ice mining frigate, or tweaking the mackinaw mass to let it in.

3) Agree. If you want to live like a hobo, you can do it.

4) I don't particularly see this as a problem. I wanted to find a C4 with X877-N766/C247 Wolf Rayet to move into when the C4's were getting a second static added. So we seeded alts into 6 holes which had X877, C247 or N766's, over the four weeks leading up to Hyperion, and we waited. Eventually we realised we missed the random number generator, so settled for a no-effect X+N hole. My pointe is, its hard to find the unicorn holes as it is now, so people have a marketplace for this, and
people pay ISK to oother people to be shown in to the hole they want. it will be the same with these systems.

5) It's irrelevant reducing the packaged size of a strat cruiser unless the cargo bay can get over 5,000m3 - you can't launch a ship from a fleet hangar. So, unless you can somehow get 5,000m into a frigate or dessie hull, no one's bringing anything bigger in anyway. FYI, cargo dragoon is 1350m3.

It is worth having a debate over whether the mining barges should be as big as they are, mostly around C1 access. It is a bit odd that Exhumers can't fit into a C1 hole. In order to get a barge of any kind through a frig hole we would need a fair bit of surgery on the mass. It's a bit limited, and odd, that HICs can squeeze through, though that'd cool anyway....

I expect that Fozzie can try his roleplay hat on and ORE can come up with a mining destroyer capable of chipping away at blocks of ice. Maybe call it the Narwhal.


Taking a couple of points out of order, it would be nice if EVERY current frig hole opened up into shattered space (S-space), and therefore every access of a frig hole to k space went through S-space (directly if you are already in S- space). No j-space to J space connections via frig holes. This would make finding them easier and more active too.

Keep the 25 wolf rayett holes but if they prove popular add pheonix jones white dwarf effect to an additional group of S-space mass limited holes, but keep the same damage bonus to small weapons, these are needed for balanced PVE in frigates, Whilst we often forget to balance for PVE it is needed to be the base, and support of the food chain.

Regarding Ice.
There is room here for an ice mining version of the prospect, I imagine Fozzie already has thought of that. Can it mine and chop the ice Into smaller Blocks? Or mine part blocks?

I love the Narwal name. Perfect name if it could do that.

Remove Sentry guns from these holes (if they are planned to be in there at all) they are just not a suitable choice with frigates in mind.. Hopefully already done.

I would like to see a mobille depot with a short life force field, certainly less than 48 hours before refuelling or redeploying. If it is decided that it needs refuelling, Let it run directly on ice? Or some other product found in the same hole? A tool for active use, not for leaving alone long term unattended. Something to pick up before you logoff.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#26 - 2014-11-18 16:38:25 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Please dont encourage this frig space garbage even more....
Have some self respect and fly some real ships.


I totally disagree... Frigate content is most fun content... you go in do something crazy and either you survive and giggle or you die and still giggle because you lost just <100 Mio ISK.

And yes, CCP doesn't want people to live in the new shattered wormholes which is a good idea. At the moment every freaking wormhole is habituated by someone. This is annoying. With the new WH you can come in find an empty space and leave once you are done. Then comes the next one.
Hayley Enaka
Bookmark Both Sides
#27 - 2014-11-18 21:54:23 UTC
Meditril wrote:
At the moment every freaking wormhole is habituated by someone.


Do you live in a different w-space to the rest of us? Where are these inhabited wormholes and how do I find them?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#28 - 2014-11-19 00:12:49 UTC
I would say he lives in Eszur. But that is not true anymore.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#29 - 2014-11-19 02:30:11 UTC
I would avoid any type of force field around any type of deployable. What I would do is create a buffer zone around certain deployable a that would either remove the ship from dscan and increase the sensor strength to help it resist probing.

A shield of protection is bad for this small space. I'd defer to resistance to being probe over some pos shield.

Yaay!!!!

Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-11-19 09:49:46 UTC
I am looking forward to these frig systems. I will be nice to try new things and new meta's (you can break away in frigs so kiting may be a thing)

So Much Space

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#31 - 2014-11-19 12:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I would avoid any type of force field around any type of deployable. What I would do is create a buffer zone around certain deployable a that would either remove the ship from dscan and increase the sensor strength to help it resist probing.

A shield of protection is bad for this small space. I'd defer to resistance to being probe over some pos shield.


Actually that is a much better idea. A mobile depot with this feature is a great idea.
It would need careful thought to prevent it becoming an overpowered object out of the wormhole in k space, maybe need the W-R system effect to function?
+1 to the amended deployable.

This is the beauty of the forums, one comes with an idea, and amongst all the garbage, somebody comes out with an idea from left field that makes it much better.

Thanks.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Winthorp
#32 - 2014-11-19 12:57:20 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
I am looking forward to these frig systems. I will be nice to try new things and new meta's (you can break away in frigs so kiting may be a thing)


Ohh the naivety of youth, its so cute.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#33 - 2014-11-19 13:16:14 UTC
As a non-holer:

What's the purpose of these system going to be?

It can't be habitated, so why would you go there?

There's noone who will form a defense-fleet in those holes. There's noone who'll form an invasion fleet for those holes.
There's no shiny kills and glorious fights to be had in those holes.

It looks to me like they'll be damn empty all the time until there are so many sites that someone actually forms a AF fleet to run it.



Theoretically, could a single AF (Let's say, a Retribution) run a C3 site solo in there with all the system effects applied?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#34 - 2014-11-19 13:26:01 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
As a non-holer:

What's the purpose of these system going to be?

It can't be habitated, so why would you go there?

There's noone who will form a defense-fleet in those holes. There's noone who'll form an invasion fleet for those holes.
There's no shiny kills and glorious fights to be had in those holes.

It looks to me like they'll be damn empty all the time until there are so many sites that someone actually forms a AF fleet to run it.



Theoretically, could a single AF (Let's say, a Retribution) run a C3 site solo in there with all the system effects applied?


There is a temptation, when thinking of wormhole space to only consider the PVP aspect and take a macho attitude of believing the only additions to wormhole space should keep this as a laser focus.

Unfortunately if one does that, one ends up with the space gradually becoming sterile.

Eve is an organic structure in a sense a biome, where the food chain is not there just to support the top predators, but all the stages in between.

These holes are fantastic PVE holes, we will of course need to see the whole delivery of the feature to know exactly how they will be used, and imaginative people will do very interesting things with them.

If they were balanced exactly the same as existing space but with a small entrance, then they would struggle to provide the opportunities for new play techniques. What is being given to us though is really quite interesting and has great potential.

It is often better to travel hopefully than to arrive. And we do not know the destination, as it is yet to be discovered.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#35 - 2014-11-19 15:03:48 UTC
Hayley Enaka wrote:
Meditril wrote:
At the moment every freaking wormhole is habituated by someone.


Do you live in a different w-space to the rest of us? Where are these inhabited wormholes and how do I find them?


Try adding Force Fields to your overview

Arronicus
Caldari Navy Reconnaissance
#36 - 2014-11-21 12:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Trinkets friend wrote:
Yeah, no. POSs in frigate only wormholes would be a bit OP. First person inside can never be evicted by the hordes of blappable Enyos which would wash up ineffectually on the POS defences (namely, a DG Large with 40 small blasters and 10 DG web batteries).


Domination web batteries you mean, which have 36mm scan res. Drone frigate fleet could EASILY defang the webs on your small blaster pos from 60km, then bring in bombers and wipe it up.

"Hurf durf no, the webs would still hit the drone boats 60km"

Right, but the blasters wont, nor will they actually target drones on their own. Unmanned, it would be relatively simple to take out any pos setup with a frig fleet.

More on topic though; I don't like these frigate only shattered systems, but someone might, so w.e., more content is good, I guess. Dont think you should be able to live long term ANYWHERE you want though.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#37 - 2014-11-23 05:35:30 UTC
OK, good luck RFing a tower with sentry Asteros.
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#38 - 2014-11-24 22:35:40 UTC
Stuff to do in frigate s is the most important thing here.
It gets people in the new frig space, wich then can be hunted.
It is essential in the new frig only holes!
But also the other w-space systems need more stuff to do in frigates so that the frig holes would be more usefull.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Jackson Olacar
Krypted Gaming
#39 - 2014-11-25 01:24:56 UTC
Kyra Kurai wrote:
Imagine scanning your way into a hole with nothing more than a few combat frigs, a bunch of ventures, and no infrastructure.
You live out of small depolyables to start; Mining with your ventures, setting up minimal PI that has to be launched to space.
Eventually, you construct your first small tower. Your bubble goes up for the first time with a bit of fuel you slipped in with your cargo-fit exploration ships.
Now you can really get going.
etc.


I like any ideas that can breathe more life into w-space. And opening up w-space to low sp pilots who can complete all the content with frigates would be a spawning ground for future w-space corps that would one day be milling around in hac's, t3's, and caps. And the whole haven and hearth meets eve aspect is pretty cool. But there are quite a few balance issues that need to be worked through. As many have mentioned, the first person in would be immovable.

Still, rolling into a hole where you could have a small fleet fight with newbros in af's and logi frigs would be a nice way to spice up a night.
Ilaister
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-11-25 01:58:48 UTC
I don't think its laziness on Fozzie, or anyone else at CCP's part that we have the frigholes we have or are due to get.

We can be pretty sure that it's been run past Corbexx and he's been a revelation (personally speaking) in terms of keeping our interests at the forefront of the Devs' minds.

They know they can't make more adjustments in the short term to how jump mechanics work and how that favours brawly T3s so the easiest way to stop us being lazy and flying the same tired **** everywhere and gangraping newbros in frigates is to prevent us from bringing them in entirely, and make the effect interesting enough that we are keen to create different comps for the environment.

I can get Frig pew in FW pretty much in every chain without thinking about it and can bring w/e I want. If we need to traverse/gank something in a frighole we at leat have to think about what we're piloting before we jump the stat.
Previous page12