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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2014-11-18 07:20:35 UTC
guys seriously this is a serious thread stop being difficult.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2014-11-18 07:30:06 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
guys seriously this is a serious thread stop being difficult.


I agree. Instead of clone costs CCP should implement fuel costs for that automatically come out of your wallet for every au yor warp drive carries you.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2014-11-18 09:54:29 UTC
Clueless Noobness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2014-11-18 09:59:33 UTC
New players not understanding about clones and old players forgetting to upgrade are real issues but could be solved simply with a mandatory pop-up when you get a new clone after losing your pod. Moving the free clone level up to 5 million SP might be a good idea too.

High skill point players who can't afford clones .. I admit I just don't understand this so no comment.

If there is going to be no cost to being podded in a cheap ship then at least remove the one podded from the fight by preventing undocking for 30 minutes or force the new clone to be at least 25 jumps away or something. Blowing up, getting the new pod and being back on the field in a minute with no cost just seems problematic.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#305 - 2014-11-18 11:26:49 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


well then add some new "fun" penalty for getting podded, which offers some more proper gameplay. Free teleportation home is simply not enough.
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2014-11-18 11:44:34 UTC
Free teleportation to the nearest highsec station maybe?

or maybe nearest any station with a clone bay and good luck getting home in that shuttle/rookie ship.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2014-11-18 13:15:29 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
well then add some new "fun" penalty for getting podded, which offers some more proper gameplay. Free teleportation home is simply not enough.

idea: you lose your implants when you get podded
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#308 - 2014-11-18 13:18:22 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
well then add some new "fun" penalty for getting podded, which offers some more proper gameplay. Free teleportation home is simply not enough.

idea: you lose your implants when you get podded

What a lovely thought, and that will nicely penalise those that can afford implants more than those that are space-poor Lol
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#309 - 2014-11-18 15:18:20 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
But you're wrong. Or you have an agenda. Clone costs don't unduly burden new players. Below 900,000 sp you don't need a clone. The next clone cost is 28,000. You only need to upgrade clones if you get podded, which is not PvE. A ship for PvP will cost you 100x more than a clone if you fail to warp off properly.


Apparently the problem is the supervets who spend, at minimum, 32m per clone.

Somehow they get podded enough that they're spending a fortune in clones.
They're also vets who can't secure their pods and warp out in time.

I'm not even being sarcastic. These are legit arguments being presented.

60 mil, and without poddings there's still risk. In bubbles, you have to go in them, and pods don't escape them very well. -you- are being rather obtuse by suggesting losing pods is due to lack of skill. bubbles are a defining trait of Nullsec, where CCP would prefer players end up, despite this.


I'm not going to pretend I'm a 50 year vet but I've lived in low and nullsec since my account was created.
Unless I feel like afk missioning because I'm bored.

The region of Minmitar/Amarr nullsec I seem to frequent is pretty dead. In fact, almost all of it is dead. There's not much activity aside from bubble traps and the occasional POS bashing. With that said, bubbles aren't guaranteed death aside from very few scenarios:

A) You're warping from gate to gate. You deserve to get caught.
B) Large-scale warfare, in which case you knew full well what you were getting into
C) The unlikely event that someone pops a bubble right before he kills you

I'm not saying losing pods is due to lack of skill. I'm saying you greatly reduce your chances with skill. In fact, the only times you should lose your pod is when someone goes out of their way to earn it.

This is getting to the feminazi stage of arguing. Instead of taking chances not to lose your pod, just nerf bubbles. And players. Get rid of PvP altogether because the risks are obviously outweighing the potential for you.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#310 - 2014-11-18 15:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Instead of taking chances not to lose your pod, just nerf bubbles. And players. Get rid of PvP altogether because the risks are obviously outweighing the potential for you.

Alternatively, just remove a stupid death tax that penalizes you for using the same character instead of rolling multiple alts and for being a loyal customer.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#311 - 2014-11-18 16:06:25 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Instead of taking chances not to lose your pod, just nerf bubbles. And players. Get rid of PvP altogether because the risks are obviously outweighing the potential for you.

Alternatively, just remove a stupid death tax that penalizes you for using the same character instead of rolling multiple alts and for being a loyal customer.


Stop oppressing me.
Remove death altogether.

This is obviously a patriarchal system.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#312 - 2014-11-18 17:15:34 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Stop oppressing me.
Remove death altogether.

This is obviously a patriarchal system.

You're having a lot of fun riding that slippery slope.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#313 - 2014-11-18 17:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
13kr1d1 wrote:
Rookie ship given to you automatically for docking.
Insurance automatically paid out for blowing up.


1) This is kind of obnoxious, especially when you move around a lot and the little buggers clutter up your asset list. It's not a good mechanic, though it is occasionally convenient.

2) If insurance was automatically paid for when you bought the ship, you'd have a point.

13kr1d1 wrote:
Anything that "exists" in "eve" that pilots don't have to deal with is "automatic" like hiring and manning the crews, for instance.


The funny thing is that after slumming in Star Trek Online for a while, I've grown to like the crew-management minigame. If there are interesting choices available, it's engaging gameplay.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2014-11-18 17:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
I would wonder if changing how clones work is part of getting things in place to get Brain in a Box to work right.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-11-18 18:00:01 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Stop oppressing me.
Remove death altogether.

This is obviously a patriarchal system.

You're having a lot of fun riding that slippery slope.


There's just no point in arguing.
The only valid argument against the clone mechanic is that it's old.
This thread is full of supervets crying about clone costs when they're getting podded 50 times a day.

Make the game as easy as you want. I don't care.
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2014-11-18 19:25:56 UTC
Well, we have no idea what sort of system they plan on implementing that may make the game all the harder, so you don't know if this will make things easier.

After all, one point that you've mentioned is how easy it is for higher vets to buy clones, so if they took the clone mechanic out, would it really matter?

They might put in a system that makes it so that the type of clone you buy gives you racial bonuses. Might bump up the effects of implants, might this and that. advantages that will lead to tougher enemies. All the clone grades do is add that extra "well that sort of hurt" Thats more like an "that kitten hurt!!!" when you're first starting the game.
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-11-18 19:28:49 UTC
Arune Malieka wrote:
Well, we have no idea what sort of system they plan on implementing that may make the game all the harder, so you don't know if this will make things easier.

After all, one point that you've mentioned is how easy it is for higher vets to buy clones, so if they took the clone mechanic out, would it really matter?

They might put in a system that makes it so that the type of clone you buy gives you racial bonuses. Might bump up the effects of implants, might this and that. advantages that will lead to tougher enemies. All the clone grades do is add that extra "well that sort of hurt" Thats more like an "that kitten hurt!!!" when you're first starting the game.


Yes, remove clones and offer free stats.
I need more buffs for my offgrid links.

>solo
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2014-11-18 19:31:01 UTC
Whens the last time something that gave you an advantage in eve was free?
Magormor
Homicidal Suicidal
#319 - 2014-11-18 20:30:01 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
I agree. I don't really see why they have to further negatively impact the gameplay of Eve because people can't adapt.


lololol who is "not adapting"???


my 10 cents. Clone cost is silly. I often wont engage a gang with a sabre unless I know I can win. I do otherwise take fights that have a high probability of my loosing, but I hate to add an extra 20mill to each death so there is less content.

I am a PVPer saying I will adapt for the good effects of me PVPing more. You have 0 PVP kills and 1 pod loss. This does not affect you. https://zkillboard.com/character/581013969/
ThaMa Gebir
Penumbra Institute
#320 - 2014-11-18 21:16:46 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.



I agree with the OP. Removal of clone replacement costs are part of the core mechanic of the game. Don't like it? Don't risk your clone then moron. Don't expect others to cover your ass when you and ONLY you are responsible for your safety...