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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#1421 - 2014-11-18 07:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Veers Belvar wrote:
I for one will be checking out the killboard for the first few days post-release, and except to see quite a few ganks of this "unkillable" ship.


Oh it's killable, it just relies on the pilot doing something monumentally stupid like not fitting tank, fitting laughably incorrect correct tank, going afk and not turning on his modules (has anyone posted recently about how annoying it is that damage control has no visible effect?), flying it with active kill rights (oh yes I should mention that I expect a few to die this way intentionally since it's fully insurable), flying it in (factional) war, undocking it when already suspect, panic ejecting (I don't understand it but people do this) or self destructing (yes this does generate a killmail provided that there was some player damage to the ship). Or of course the old favourite, flying straight into low or null without a plan or even checking your route.

EDIT: I forgot a couple. Accepting a duel, joining a corp that doesn't screen applicants. The latter is admittedly only stupid, not monumentally stupid.
Jerome Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1422 - 2014-11-18 09:26:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Warr Akini wrote:
The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here...
"hurr durr let's gank this empty freighter for ***** and giggles hurr durr."

What exactly do you need to understand? It is difficult to defend against irrational behaviour.


Yea... that guy runs a for profit organisation, not code.


CODE does as well, not on a per gank level, but on a meta one
I am confident the share/donation pool plus loot makes the whole operation profitable.
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#1423 - 2014-11-18 09:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fu Qjoo
I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought.

If you want to move more than one rigged BS now, you have 2 options:

  • destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker


  • fly it by yourself


Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining?

In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away.
So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk.

Which is good in my opinion.

And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads.

Which would be good as well.
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#1424 - 2014-11-18 10:08:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
Oh and here we go

travel fit machariel found with a cloak and mwd found

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42170465/


This is a bumping Mach or a pilot with a ship/cargo scanner fetish.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1425 - 2014-11-18 10:49:32 UTC
Fu Qjoo wrote:
I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought.

If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:

  • destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker


  • fly it by yourself


Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining?

In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away.
So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk.

Which is good in my opinion.

And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads.

Which would be good as well.


Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1426 - 2014-11-18 10:57:28 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:


Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.


Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1427 - 2014-11-18 11:01:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.


Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.


When the bowhead can ferry 4-10 bs with a total value of below 500m, you will have a point.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1428 - 2014-11-18 11:07:56 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.


Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.


When the bowhead can ferry 4-10 bs with a total value of below 500m, you will have a point.


It never will because null sec would abuse such a ship to undo the force projection nerfs.
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#1429 - 2014-11-18 11:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fu Qjoo
Barton Breau wrote:
Fu Qjoo wrote:
I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought.

If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:

  • destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker


  • fly it by yourself


Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining?

In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away.
So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk.

Which is good in my opinion.

And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads.

Which would be good as well.


Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.


Apologies for being unprecise. My post was intended to refer to a situation in that more than one ship has to be moved. Which is obvious from the content but the wording was bad. I have edited it now.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1430 - 2014-11-18 11:31:46 UTC
Lets go over the numbers again.

With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.

It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy.
Anthar Thebess
#1431 - 2014-11-18 11:33:55 UTC
Can this ship get a younger brother?
Let say something that is capable of hauling a cruiser , destroyer and 2-3 frigates at the same time.
It is fun you offer nice stuff for older and more wealthy players, but some stuff for new players could be also nice.

Noob Whale

Med slots : 4
Low slots : 3
Cargo Bay :1500
Ship Hangar : 225.000 m3
Total EHP : around 25k without mods
Prerequisite : Ore Industrial LVL 3 , Adv Spaceship Command LVL 1

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1432 - 2014-11-18 11:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
baltec1 wrote:
Lets go over the numbers again.

With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.

It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy.


And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1433 - 2014-11-18 11:47:04 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can this ship get a younger brother?
Let say something that is capable of hauling a cruiser , destroyer and 2-3 frigates at the same time.
It is fun you offer nice stuff for older and more wealthy players, but some stuff for new players could be also nice.

Noob Whale

Med slots : 4
Low slots : 3
Cargo Bay :1500
Ship Hangar : 225.000 m3
Total EHP : around 25k without mods
Prerequisite : Ore Industrial LVL 3 , Adv Spaceship Command LVL 1


Lrn 2 Orca.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1434 - 2014-11-18 11:50:50 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:


Lrn 2 Orca.


A faster orca without the whole mining ballast (500-700k ship bay) is not so unreasonable, however the decision to call it "Ore FREIGHTER" makes that impossible on itself, much less that the null is jumping at the 90% reduction themselves.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1435 - 2014-11-18 12:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Barton Breau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lets go over the numbers again.

With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.

It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy.


And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".


Try not skipping over the first paragraph.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1436 - 2014-11-18 13:41:00 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".


Why is that? That's exactly the same argument carebears use about the Catalyst to try and get ganking nerfed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anthar Thebess
#1437 - 2014-11-18 13:41:43 UTC
Orca is still quite expensive stuff for a new player.
I'm talking about ship that will be worth max 100mil , and if it could cost around 50mil , then this will be even better.

Something that new player can use to haul its stuff without investment in mining skills.
Orca have much bigger cargo space and tank, and ability to boost the fleet.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1438 - 2014-11-18 13:58:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:


Seriously?
Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank?
Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.

Bad guy is bad.


Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock.


Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes.
The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8.

Seriously, you spend too much time in HS.
You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates.

A dessy with sebos does wonders.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1439 - 2014-11-18 15:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:


Seriously?
Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank?
Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.

Bad guy is bad.


Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock.


Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes.
The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8.

Seriously, you spend too much time in HS.
You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates.

A dessy with sebos does wonders.


Yet here we are with people saying a travel fit mach that is slower and more expensive than a dread is a good idea. You can dump a 50 man fleet on this thing and still walk away with a profit. Meanwhile the actual travel fit machs are aligning nearly twice as fast and are sporting a t2 fit.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1440 - 2014-11-18 16:24:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:


Seriously?
Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank?
Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.

Bad guy is bad.


Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock.


Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes.
The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8.

Seriously, you spend too much time in HS.
You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates.

A dessy with sebos does wonders.


Yet here we are with people saying a travel fit mach that is slower and more expensive than a dread is a good idea. You can dump a 50 man fleet on this thing and still walk away with a profit. Meanwhile the actual travel fit machs are aligning nearly twice as fast and are sporting a t2 fit.



where was he promoting a 3 bil isk travel fit mach?