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making suicide ganking a little more fair to miners, esp. solo miners
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#61 - 2014-11-16 19:27:22 UTC
Mateo Cobra wrote:

There still is a balance problem, IMO, because if you use your skiff tanked to 90K ehp, or if it were possible 180K ehp, it still makes you a defenseless target to be tackled and ganked by any interested party.


That's not a problem.

If you want offense, fly a ship that can fit guns. By choosing a mining vessel you have deliberately abdicated this in order to fly a ship that can just make money appear out of thin air with zero effort.

IMO, it's a fair tradeoff.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#62 - 2014-11-17 01:47:40 UTC
Mateo Cobra wrote:
I may look into the Prospect -- I know that cloaked ships cannot be targeted, but don't know if they can still be tackled while attempting to cloak. I'm sure the answer is out there. I will find it.

Regards to everybody,

Mateo


Look no further, this is a question of server ticks. Please remember this is not definitive, just my experiences over the past 4 plus years or so of flying cov-ops ships and not based on anything I have ever read from CCP on the matter.

If your client tells the server to cloak BEFORE they tell the client to target you, your ship will cloak and you fly away.
If their client tells the server to target you BEFORE yours says to cloak then you will not be able to cloak and will be targeted.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#63 - 2014-11-17 03:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Jur Tissant wrote:
Andrew Indy wrote:
Mining is Low sec is generally a bad idea,


Not really. I made some decent money mining Jaspet in a quiet low-sec system on the side for a month or two, until I got kicked out. You can even jetcan mine in some instances - it's just about finding the right system.


Hence generally.

Of all of the places to mine Low sec is the least secure.

HS, you have concord.
Null you have distance, Bubbles and the blue Donut. (a Skiff or 2 can force off inties with little effort as long as backup is stuck in bubbles)
WHs, you close connections and watch for new Sigs.

In Low sec anyone can go anywhere and a couple of Inties can easily blitz a few systems and find targets and backup is not far behind.

Supporting material
CCP Mined Volume By SecStatus
Jenshae Chiroptera
#64 - 2014-11-18 00:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Okay. let me qualify my posts. The ideas and such, I put forward are advocating for active miners that might also socialise together and want to put together response fleets.


Thats beautiful but, you just said you wanted one bigger mining barge that is both tanky, high yield and probably has the largest capacity.


I am quite happy if cargo scales down from a procurer to a Hulk.

Mateo Cobra wrote:

There still is a balance problem, IMO, because if you use your skiff tanked to 90K ehp, or if it were possible 180K ehp, it still makes you a defenseless target to be tackled and ganked by any interested party.


Mining solo isn't a good idea. Now, having a fleet with the odd one having tackle mods on ... a large tank means that you effectively can work as a bait ship. Pin them down, set your drones on them and if they have friends you last long enough for your friends to join the party.

Real fights. Not cheap thrills.

The effort (putting ships together, moving them where you want them) and expense for gankers vs miners is ridiculous.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#65 - 2014-11-18 03:04:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Mining solo isn't a good idea. Now, having a fleet with the odd one having tackle mods on ... a large tank means that you effectively can work as a bait ship. Pin them down, set your drones on them and if they have friends you last long enough for your friends to join the party.

Just to clarify you cannot do this in high sec cause you can only shoot those who are shooting you. As a result mining in a fleet in high sec offers no form of protection from the gankers other than they may choose someone else in your fleet instead of you.
Also in high sec using your drones to defend immediately cancels any Concord response that may have been coming.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#66 - 2014-11-18 03:19:31 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Mining solo isn't a good idea. Now, having a fleet with the odd one having tackle mods on ... a large tank means that you effectively can work as a bait ship. Pin them down, set your drones on them and if they have friends you last long enough for your friends to join the party.

Just to clarify you cannot do this in high sec cause you can only shoot those who are shooting you. As a result mining in a fleet in high sec offers no form of protection from the gankers other than they may choose someone else in your fleet instead of you.
Also in high sec using your drones to defend immediately cancels any Concord response that may have been coming.


People actually are this ignorant? Are you kidding me?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#67 - 2014-11-18 04:18:09 UTC
No, people are just trolls, either that, or they're really just that stupid
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
#68 - 2014-11-18 07:32:11 UTC
find a proper corp and stop complaining.

Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci

CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase - Frostys Virpio
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-11-18 08:00:23 UTC
Mateo Cobra wrote:
ALL:

I joined Eve about 3 months ago and have been reading voraciously on as many topics as I can. My first and main job is mining. After my first retriever was ganked in TAMA, I realized there's no way to protect myself in 0.3 space as a solo miner.

After a few more gankings, only in retrievers and a mackinaw, and some more research from both perspectives, the gankers ("gankstas"?) definitely have an unfair advantage. They can come up to your machine while cloaked, scan it for tanking equipment, go refit in a staging area, and come back for the suicide run.

Insurance is a small help. Platinum insurance raises the ship cost by about 1/3. Worse, I've always been podded. There's no penalty for the pirates, and so there's no reason to not pod the defenseless miner. [Implants are expensive.]

Insurance for the implants are, I suppose, out of the question.

IDEA#1: So here's the idea. Let's have pirates that do not pod their prey be in one category, "non-podding criminals," and pirates that do pod be in another category, "podding criminals.". The difference is that the authorities will attack "podding criminals" and destroy not only their ride but also their pod. This makes it more expensive for podding.

IDEA#2: put self-destruct on more expensive, larger ships only.

IDEA#3: add the ability for pilots to hire NPC "bodyguards," scaling force and time by cost. This allows some safety for solo miners in exchange for some of their profits. Considerations like war and traveling between factions and other issues make this a can of worms, but there is some potential in this idea for people who still want to fly mackinaws and retrievers but cannot adequately tank, or who would rather fit for mining speed than for tanking. So I need some constructive ideas to flesh this one out.

Thanks for reading -- hope this inspires you! Big smile

Mateo

Really you want CCP to make mining safer in a Lowsec System are you nuts ? Lowsec is the dangerous place for mining even before wh, 0.0 and highsec.

Idea 1: Don´t needed you see it the most times on the sec status. And most will always shoot on your pod.

Idea 2 : Why ?

Idea 3 : No ******* way. Go in a corp, get into highsec you have there unbeatable bodyguards.
Anthar Thebess
#70 - 2014-11-18 13:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
I love ganking , but it is a bit OP.
Ganking became very big issue after boost to destroyers.
Investing less than 10mil in ships and fittings you can easily kill T2 Mining Barge.
Assuming that you will gather the stuff and salvage the barge you can even make profit from this.

There is no simple fix for this.
People in mining ships do not tank their ships but invest all possible space into mining boosting stuff.
Yet, even most tanked T2 Barge can be killed while investing less than 15% of its worth in suicide ships.

Mining barges need some work on the EHP related issues.
From my perspective they should have around 50k of structure hit points ( or even more ), something that can be easily boosted by damage control.
Something that directly increase EHP without changing the TANK related stuff.

WHY?
Because mining barges are also something that people use in nullsec.

If you are bit more experienced player you know simple stuff :
Mining barge tackled on belt ?
A. Will be dead before any one will be able to react.
B. Still alive , someone is waiting for a noob spawn before showing main forces.

Think how much fights people can have if single barge structure points could be around 100k

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#71 - 2014-11-18 14:07:11 UTC
Anthar, destroyers were buffed alongside the hilariously good barge buffs. They're pretty much even.

Surviving ganking, barring the Procurer and the Skiff, is about awareness, not the strict stats on the ship. Awareness permits you to survive almost any attack.

And when a nearly 100% effective counter exists, no buff is necessary. I am sick and tired of hearing "one more nerf" just because the same people still refuse to play the game correctly.

Afk players dying is working as intended.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sentient Sovereign
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-11-18 16:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Sovereign
Mateo Cobra wrote:
I joined Eve about 3 months ago and have been reading voraciously on as many topics as I can. My first and main job is mining. After my first retriever was ganked in TAMA, I realized there's no way to protect myself in 0.3 space as a solo miner.

Not exactly true - but it shouldn't be a surprise that in a "free for all" place, those with numbers will beat solo.
Those fit for combat will beat those fit for mining
Learn to use d-scan, and the map statistics.
Also, check local.


Quote:
They can come up to your machine while cloaked, scan it for tanking equipment, go refit in a staging area, and come back for the suicide run.

Scanning requires a target lock. A target lock requires a cloak.
They probably don't bother to scan you for tank mods in low sec. They don't need to worry about Concord killing them before they kill you.

Quote:
Insurance is a small help.

Indeed, I almost never bother with it. I only get it when I intend to engage in an action that will most likely make me lose my ship in the near future.


My counter proposals:
* Inhibiting criminal operation in High sec
1In null sec, they can set who is, and who is not allowed to dock at a station.
-10 sec status criminals should not be able to dock in stations in high sec/ 0.5 (-9 for 0.6, -8 for 0.7 ... -6 for 1.0)
Assisting criminals in any way gets you a suspect flag (already implemented?) - including simply fleeting with them to give them boosts (must have some periodic check + warning period, to allow people to drop fleet before inadvertently becoming suspects)
Facilities (ie high sec POSs) that are set to allow criminals to use them also become legal targets after a criminal uses them.

* Removing gate camps
Faction police spawns should periodically come to "clear" gates, perhaps at scheduled intervals.
They engage not just criminals, but also those with low standing towards their faction.
Gate guns will fire at people with low sec status, regardless of whether or not they've agressed. The sec status limit before they fire will actually be *higher* than the limit for players engaging criminals in much of high sec

* Intermediate sec
make 0.5 and 0.4 a new type of security system, where concord/ faction police do respond, but it is not impossible to escape them. Thus its not neccessarily suicide ganking. Gank, and retreat from the field.
NPCs could come to deal DPS towards the agressors, but response time is slow, and they don't scram, or its relatively easy to escape the scram (fit a stab, kill/jam/otherwise disable the scramming ship)


The result:
Harder for criminals to operate in high sec
A new intermediate securtity space
Anti-gate camp mechanics for low sec
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#73 - 2014-11-18 16:30:33 UTC
Oh dear, here we go again....
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#74 - 2014-11-18 17:35:59 UTC
Sentient Sovereign wrote:
Mateo Cobra wrote:
I joined Eve about 3 months ago and have been reading voraciously on as many topics as I can. My first and main job is mining. After my first retriever was ganked in TAMA, I realized there's no way to protect myself in 0.3 space as a solo miner.

Not exactly true - but it shouldn't be a surprise that in a "free for all" place, those with numbers will beat solo.
Those fit for combat will beat those fit for mining
Learn to use d-scan, and the map statistics.
Also, check local.


Quote:
They can come up to your machine while cloaked, scan it for tanking equipment, go refit in a staging area, and come back for the suicide run.

Scanning requires a target lock. A target lock requires a cloak.
They probably don't bother to scan you for tank mods in low sec. They don't need to worry about Concord killing them before they kill you.

Quote:
Insurance is a small help.

Indeed, I almost never bother with it. I only get it when I intend to engage in an action that will most likely make me lose my ship in the near future.


My counter proposals:
* Inhibiting criminal operation in High sec
1In null sec, they can set who is, and who is not allowed to dock at a station.
-10 sec status criminals should not be able to dock in stations in high sec/ 0.5 (-9 for 0.6, -8 for 0.7 ... -6 for 1.0)
Assisting criminals in any way gets you a suspect flag (already implemented?) - including simply fleeting with them to give them boosts (must have some periodic check + warning period, to allow people to drop fleet before inadvertently becoming suspects)
Facilities (ie high sec POSs) that are set to allow criminals to use them also become legal targets after a criminal uses them.

* Removing gate camps
Faction police spawns should periodically come to "clear" gates, perhaps at scheduled intervals.
They engage not just criminals, but also those with low standing towards their faction.
Gate guns will fire at people with low sec status, regardless of whether or not they've agressed. The sec status limit before they fire will actually be *higher* than the limit for players engaging criminals in much of high sec

* Intermediate sec
make 0.5 and 0.4 a new type of security system, where concord/ faction police do respond, but it is not impossible to escape them. Thus its not neccessarily suicide ganking. Gank, and retreat from the field.
NPCs could come to deal DPS towards the agressors, but response time is slow, and they don't scram, or its relatively easy to escape the scram (fit a stab, kill/jam/otherwise disable the scramming ship)


The result:
Harder for criminals to operate in high sec
A new intermediate securtity space
Anti-gate camp mechanics for low sec



Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
So tl;dr: "I don't pay enough attention and therefore should be coddled."


No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff