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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2014-11-18 00:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Rowells wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
But you're wrong. Or you have an agenda. Clone costs don't unduly burden new players. Below 900,000 sp you don't need a clone. The next clone cost is 28,000. You only need to upgrade clones if you get podded, which is not PvE. A ship for PvP will cost you 100x more than a clone if you fail to warp off properly.


Apparently the problem is the supervets who spend, at minimum, 32m per clone.

Somehow they get podded enough that they're spending a fortune in clones.
They're also vets who can't secure their pods and warp out in time.

I'm not even being sarcastic. These are legit arguments being presented.


All too true. People complain about not going in frigates because of the clone cost. We can say that yes, in null with bubbles, people can't save their clones. Or when there's a SB gatecamp, etc.

a 35 mil clone/frigate combo is still cheaper than a 300 mil cruiser/clone combo. I don't get their arguments.

So, as a player gains more SP, they shouldn't fly softer/smaller ships? If thats the case I change my stance on skill removal.



No, you can still fly it. Its your choice. It's an equalizer between newbs and "vets" as a game mechanic, but it's so much more, it makes sense in the GAME WORLD.

I can hear the complaints, they sound like rich people being upset that everyone is taxed based on a percentage of their income because, being rich, they have to pay more in strict units of $.

In other words "rich people want more for less" syndrome.

You're not treating EvE as an actual game world unto itself, you're just treating it's requirements as an impediment to you having fun "your way". Well, who do we cave to next? The people that want ship costs removed?

Freako X wrote:
I never liked the current method.

I think this is a step in the right direction. The cost of ships is enough.





Go ahead and make a features and ideas thread asking for implants to be one time buy and replaced instantly on any clone death.

If anyone loses a clone while flying a frig in low or high sec, I pity that person.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Arune Malieka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2014-11-18 00:56:13 UTC
Uh, well. I've only got about 25 mil net and i'm sort of looking forward to it being gone too.... :T
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2014-11-18 01:00:10 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
But you're wrong. Or you have an agenda. Clone costs don't unduly burden new players. Below 900,000 sp you don't need a clone. The next clone cost is 28,000. You only need to upgrade clones if you get podded, which is not PvE. A ship for PvP will cost you 100x more than a clone if you fail to warp off properly.

I'd lying if I said I didn't have an agenda. I have one, I d'nt really care about any players, vet or noob. The only thing that matters to me is the game world itself.



Except you are wrong, in that according to ccp, a lot of noobs don't have any idea they need to upgrade there clones. So several lose sp, and maybe they lose sp's a few times, and go WTF! and quit.

The point is, its a meaningless mechanic. It will still hurt to be poded, the simple fact that you may be sent clear across the galaxy is a huge deterrent to be poded, or you may lose your implants. Losing the pod was never a deterrent for me, i'm going to die anyway, it was more of a PITA that I would have to make an extra click or if I did not move my home system I had to go find a clone office before I could do anything, or if I was in a wh for months on end I might not have any chance to upgrade my clone. That 'oh ****' moment when you lose freighter 5 and realize you have to now spend 45-60 days to get it back SUCKS. All because you were taking a break from eve and died before you get back to a station.

Its a stupid mechanic, i'm glad its dying, finally.


I never lost SP back in '09 when I started playing. The game introduced you well enough to understanding clones. Even then, if you lost SP in a clone as a "newb", the cost was a few hours to a day AT MOST. It's pedantic to say that, in a game which requires you to stick around for months to train up a bunch of skills, losing a few hours to a day is going to turn off the newbs, particularly when clone upgrading is on the tip of everyone's tongue. Everyone knows about it, everyone tells newbs about it in rookie help, and the game tutorials tell you about it, warning signs, eve mails from concord and medical, and so on.

if a person can get all this info and still not "get it", the problem isn't the clone upgrade scheme.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-11-18 01:35:36 UTC
this is so bad. so how do you explain the math behind rapid podding, at tens of millions of ISK per, with no limit to how many times that can happen.

when a player finds themselves out, say, a billion ISK in med clone fees in an hour, because they had to. htfu and buy a PLEX?

the ability to undock... that should cost 20, 40, 60 million ISK?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2014-11-18 01:43:15 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
No, you can still fly it. Its your choice. It's an equalizer between newbs and "vets" as a game mechanic, but it's so much more, it makes sense in the GAME WORLD.
I didnt ask if you could fly it I'm asking if you believe they should. And no, it doen't make sense in the game world. Games are so vast and different with different rules and methods, that statement is pointless. And I would like to ask you if SP is a direct representation of someones vet status. How about someone who has skillpoints maxed in every non-combat area and just a couple in T1 frigates and cruisers. Maybe even a hauler skill or two. Is that person unevenly matched against someone with an almost identical amount of time flying those cruisers and frigs?

13kr1d1 wrote:
I can hear the complaints, they sound like rich people being upset that everyone is taxed based on a percentage of their income because, being rich, they have to pay more in strict units of $.

In other words "rich people want more for less" syndrome.
No, I'm discussing whjether or not it benefits the game as whole. Simply put, can you play with it? If you enjoy flicking the lightswitched in your home all day, then I geuss its just right for you.

13kr1d1 wrote:
You're not treating EvE as an actual game world unto itself, you're just treating it's requirements as an impediment to you having fun "your way". Well, who do we cave to next? The people that want ship costs removed?
Well, since we have to pay for clones every time, why dont we add ship crews you have to pay and feed, standard docking fees based on ship size, and restricting the character limits of NPC corp players to 120 *cough*. Screw it, lets just hire the sims designers to get their input on how we can make this game more needlessly tedious.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2014-11-18 01:47:19 UTC
still waiting for your sophistry regarding the infinite scalability of med clone fees, 13kr1d1. impress me

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#287 - 2014-11-18 02:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Rain6637 wrote:
this is so bad. so how do you explain the math behind rapid podding, at tens of millions of ISK per, with no limit to how many times that can happen.

when a player finds themselves out, say, a billion ISK in med clone fees in an hour, because they had to. htfu and buy a PLEX?

the ability to undock... that should cost 20, 40, 60 million ISK?



If you're finding undocking into pod death repeatedly because somehow, for some reason, you're in a situation you can't escape from, how is that a flaw with clone upgrades?

At some point you have to stop blaming mechanics and blaming yourself for choosing something obviously bad.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#288 - 2014-11-18 02:27:09 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
If you're finding undocking into pod death repeatedly because somehow, for some reason, you're in a situation you can't escape from, how is that a flaw with clone upgrades?

Go ahead and explain to me, in complete sentences, how the hell you got that little tidbit from my response.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#289 - 2014-11-18 03:49:26 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Shocked can't believe there are actually people arguing for the retention of current clone mechanics.

They're just awful and damn near everyone think so.


Paying for ships after blowing up is an awful costly time consuming mechanic. Paying for implants is, too. Let's remove those.

Ok, if you say so. vOv

Bacon makes us stronger
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#290 - 2014-11-18 04:00:15 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:


Your argument is opposed to itself if fights become coin flippy because of clone specializations. If you lose the ability to make a good choice, because there's a variable you can't see and control for, then there's no meaning in winning or losing said fight. Say I blow up guy X, and then Im like "oh, he was flying clone type A which is why I won, instead of clone type B". That's not satisfying because it's simply a coin flip, and win or loss is completely meaningless in coin flips.



I confess that though I have been to college, I cannot make heads or tails of this post. I cannot even begin to understand what it says.


I surrender to thread starter. I am incapable of continuing argumentation. She has successfully shamed me out of this thread.


No, you cannot have my stuff.

Call me Joe.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#291 - 2014-11-18 04:04:10 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
No, you cannot have my stuff.

Can I have your stuff though?

Bacon makes us stronger
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#292 - 2014-11-18 04:08:00 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Jvpiter wrote:
No, you cannot have my stuff.

Can I have your stuff though?



Contracts are being made. Please stand by, preferably in your current "chest forward" pose.


Call me Joe.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#293 - 2014-11-18 04:31:27 UTC
On some podcast I heard a dev say that there was a thread where a player asked for the clone upgrades and replacement to automatic. His statement was something like if the mechanic needs to be automatic then is is probably bad. Something along those lines, I will try to find it and link it here. Point is that the dev is correct, if the action needs to be automatic because not choosing will hurt you and there is really no other choice then it probably is a bad mechanic.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2014-11-18 04:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Burl en Daire wrote:
On some podcast I heard a dev say that there was a thread where a player asked for the clone upgrades and replacement to automatic. His statement was something like if the mechanic needs to be automatic then is is probably bad. Something along those lines, I will try to find it and link it here. Point is that the dev is correct, if the action needs to be automatic because not choosing will hurt you and there is really no other choice then it probably is a bad mechanic.



Rookie ship given to you automatically for docking.
Insurance automatically paid out for blowing up.

Anything that "exists" in "eve" that pilots don't have to deal with is "automatic" like hiring and manning the crews, for instance.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2014-11-18 05:31:26 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
On some podcast I heard a dev say that there was a thread where a player asked for the clone upgrades and replacement to automatic. His statement was something like if the mechanic needs to be automatic then is is probably bad. Something along those lines, I will try to find it and link it here. Point is that the dev is correct, if the action needs to be automatic because not choosing will hurt you and there is really no other choice then it probably is a bad mechanic.



Rookie ship given to you automatically for docking.
Insurance automatically paid out for blowing up.

Anything that "exists" in "eve" that pilots don't have to deal with is "automatic" like hiring and manning the crews, for instance.

Theres no punishment for not getting a rookie ship, and you pay for the insurance, unless you didnt, which i honestly dont care either wya on that one.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#296 - 2014-11-18 05:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
13kr1d1 wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
On some podcast I heard a dev say that there was a thread where a player asked for the clone upgrades and replacement to automatic. His statement was something like if the mechanic needs to be automatic then is is probably bad. Something along those lines, I will try to find it and link it here. Point is that the dev is correct, if the action needs to be automatic because not choosing will hurt you and there is really no other choice then it probably is a bad mechanic.



Rookie ship given to you automatically for docking.
Insurance automatically paid out for blowing up.

Anything that "exists" in "eve" that pilots don't have to deal with is "automatic" like hiring and manning the crews, for instance.



Insurance for a popped ship is automatic because if we had to fly to a insurance company or send in a email with a loss on it then it would be a useless mechanic that is better off being automatic. If the action doesn't provide meaningful play then it probably should be looked at.

Hiring crews is automatic and it would be a bad mechanic if you had to hire a crew for every ship just for it to function. I am just paraphrasing what was said but I do agree that the clones don't serve much purpose and only add unneeded complexity to the game and little else. I think it was Fozzie that said that on the Crossing Zebras show EP 50 interview with him and Rise.

http://crossingzebras.com/interview-ccp-fozzie-and-ccp-rise/ They start talking about clones around 11 minutes into the cast.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#297 - 2014-11-18 06:06:30 UTC
#savetheLANCE

Just Add Water
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#298 - 2014-11-18 06:12:32 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
this is so bad. so how do you explain the math behind rapid podding, at tens of millions of ISK per, with no limit to how many times that can happen.

when a player finds themselves out, say, a billion ISK in med clone fees in an hour, because they had to. htfu and buy a PLEX?

the ability to undock... that should cost 20, 40, 60 million ISK?



If you're finding undocking into pod death repeatedly because somehow, for some reason, you're in a situation you can't escape from, how is that a flaw with clone upgrades?

At some point you have to stop blaming mechanics and blaming yourself for choosing something obviously bad.

because conflict, and you go into bubbles because that's the game in null.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#299 - 2014-11-18 06:16:16 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
this is so bad. so how do you explain the math behind rapid podding, at tens of millions of ISK per, with no limit to how many times that can happen.

when a player finds themselves out, say, a billion ISK in med clone fees in an hour, because they had to. htfu and buy a PLEX?

the ability to undock... that should cost 20, 40, 60 million ISK?



If you're finding undocking into pod death repeatedly because somehow, for some reason, you're in a situation you can't escape from, how is that a flaw with clone upgrades?

At some point you have to stop blaming mechanics and blaming yourself for choosing something obviously bad.

because conflict, and you go into bubbles because that's the game in null.


you're off-topic.

this thread is now about #savetheLANCE

Just Add Water
Shaera Taam
Khanid Prime Free Irregulars
#300 - 2014-11-18 06:18:03 UTC
I'll be happy to see go a mechanic that punishes undocking and being podded.

And yes, auto-rookie-ship spam can closely follow.

-st

Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!