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Core probe scanning speed improvement.

Author
King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#61 - 2014-11-17 15:52:34 UTC
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
It's not like you just sit there and wait for the cycle to finish.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happens. Unless it's a wormhole and you have to warp to it and BM and everything, it's just "move - resize - scan - wait - wait - wait - wait - repeat"

I'm considering making a video to prove my point, but I'm not much of a videographer.

In any case, I'll be paying closer attention to this aspect over the next couple of days, and perhaps my opinion will change. However, I've been scanning everyday since before Odyssey, and have a perfect scan alt, so there may be some ranges in SP and human skills.


No, like I said it's "move - resize - scan - paste previous result to mapper / type description on mapper / ignore results from scanner / warp to previous result / warp to a moon to check out a POS / etc - repeat".

Since you are new to scanning you might not have the workflow down yet, but for others the cycle time is pretty much irrelevant and rarely idle time.

All I'm saying is that reducing the cycle time wouldn't result in concrete reduction in the time it takes to scout a chain.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#62 - 2014-11-17 18:36:33 UTC
It shouldn't be faster. It would be too easy to gank (which isn't pvp) guys in sites. Next you'll want a R-click drop down with a warp to miner tab (which would drop down a list of gankable miners for you to choose from)

How many "no"s do you need before you give up? (I can get how ever many you need)

You're starting to remind me of the Andy guy in the features and ideas forum that has been 1 man against eve w/ a horrible hyperspace something or other substitute for the fatigue stuff.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#63 - 2014-11-17 18:39:01 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
It's not like you just sit there and wait for the cycle to finish.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happens. Unless it's a wormhole and you have to warp to it and BM and everything, it's just "move - resize - scan - wait - wait - wait - wait - repeat"

I'm considering making a video to prove my point, but I'm not much of a videographer.

In any case, I'll be paying closer attention to this aspect over the next couple of days, and perhaps my opinion will change. However, I've been scanning everyday since before Odyssey, and have a perfect scan alt, so there may be some ranges in SP and human skills.


No, like I said it's "move - resize - scan - paste previous result to mapper / type description on mapper / ignore results from scanner / warp to previous result / warp to a moon to check out a POS / etc - repeat".

Since you are new to scanning you might not have the workflow down yet, but for others the cycle time is pretty much irrelevant and rarely idle time.

All I'm saying is that reducing the cycle time wouldn't result in concrete reduction in the time it takes to scout a chain.



I use the wait time to update the last sig I reconciled in my mapping tool. Learn to multi task and use that time constructively.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#64 - 2014-11-17 18:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It shouldn't be faster. It would be too easy to gank (which isn't pvp) guys in sites. Next you'll want a R-click drop down with a warp to miner tab (which would drop down a list of gankable miners for you to choose from)

How many "no"s do you need before you give up? (I can get how ever many you need)

You're starting to remind me of the Andy guy in the features and ideas forum that has been 1 man against eve w/ a horrible hyperspace something or other substitute for the fatigue stuff.




You do realise that combat probes are specifically excluded from this proposal?

But thank you for your thoughts.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#65 - 2014-11-17 20:18:46 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You do realise that combat probes are specifically excluded from this proposal?

But thank you for your thoughts.


She's right insofar as the biggest time sink with regard to sig scanning isn't the scanning itself, it's the bookmark creating and labeling and all the updating in your sig tracker of choice.

If you improved scanning itself by half, the impact on time spent would be pretty minimal. The only people who'd see the benefit would be solo players, or fleets who were just roaming around randomly, not looking to keep up a chain (good luck!).

I would be much happier if, instead of doing this, CCP brought some of this into the game interface. Right now, for all the formidable electronics our ships are supposed to have on board, they're pretty dumb, and amnesiac to boot.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#66 - 2014-11-17 20:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Dersen Lowery wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You do realise that combat probes are specifically excluded from this proposal?

But thank you for your thoughts.


She's right insofar as the biggest time sink with regard to sig scanning isn't the scanning itself, it's the bookmark creating and labeling and all the updating in your sig tracker of choice.

If you improved scanning itself by half, the impact on time spent would be pretty minimal. The only people who'd see the benefit would be solo players, or fleets who were just roaming around randomly, not looking to keep up a chain (good luck!).

I would be much happier if, instead of doing this, CCP brought some of this into the game interface. Right now, for all the formidable electronics our ships are supposed to have on board, they're pretty dumb, and amnesiac to boot.



I agree, the delay is not the largest part of the process we encounter each day, but we can improve those as players to some degree, remembering scanned signatures over a jump would be awesome for example.

But that time delay still adds up considerably, the math is discussed earlier in the thread.

These are items for other suggestions and proposals though, add them to the wormhole little things thread if you wish.

This proposal however is kept deliberately simple, uncomplicated, and is nothing more than a quality of life improvement.
The settings hopefully will not require more than a few database entries, which makes it achievable. (Definately hopefully).

So recommending a quality of life improvement, that is quick to implement, and improves the life of every single person who scans in all areas of space, deliberately without changing combat scanning, has got to be a good thing.

It will of course will upset the- " I had to scan my way to school, 50AU every day sunshine and snow, and if I didn't get my probes in a tidy pattern my Father would feed my bones to an Amarrian slaver hound, and then I would have to scan the hound home...... You damn kids have it too easy" -people.

But they will get over it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-11-17 22:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Remembering scanned signatures over a jump would be awesome for example.

Why didn't you just start with this, which would actually be an excellent change, rather than some garbage about removing a delay that has a very real reason for existing?

People have already pointed it out to you but i'm going to say it again; you just want scanning to be easier.
You're denying it repeatedly i know, calling this a 'quality of life' improvement, but come on.
The only thing that matters when it comes to difficulty of scanning is sigs scanned per time.
I'f 1 method lets you scan 2 sigs a minute and another lets you scan 4 sigs a minute, well then the second method is twice as good/twice as easy.
you saying you want the cycle time removed just means you want scanning to be faster which means more sigs scanned in the same amount of time, ie; easier.

what you are failing to see is that the cycle time on probes puts a hard limit on the maximum efficiency of a scanner which needs to be there!
right now the cycle time is 4-4.5 seconds.
lets say scanner A needs 1 pass on each sig in a system because he knows what he is doing and is using a probe setup that allows for it, scanner B needs 2 passes because he's using the default probe layout and scanner C needs 3 passes because it's his first time in wspace and he's a giant scrub.
with the cycle time, scanner A is twice as fast as B and 3 times as fast as C. this is a significant difference that he has earned by having the skills and technique down for scanning.
without the cycle time he will still be faster by only by the fraction of a second it takes the other 2 scanners to adjust their probes since their secondary passes are instant which hugely reduces he edge.

How if this fair?
Giving everyone the ability to launch 8 probes was a huge mistake that already vastly reduces the advantage a maxed scanner has and removing the cycle time would make it literally pointless to train ANY astro skill past 3.

Scanning is one of the few areas (outside of PVP) where player skill actually matters a lot any youre trying to get rid of that. Just stop.

PS: Contrary to what seems to be popular opinion in the last few posts, the cycle time IS the biggest time sink for a good scanner and that's exactly how it should be. If it's NOT your biggest time sink, work on your scanning skills until it is.
(Cmon people, adding sigs to siggy is literally a single copy/paste once youve scanned every sig in system...)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#68 - 2014-11-17 22:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jack Miton wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Remembering scanned signatures over a jump would be awesome for example.

Why didn't you just start with this, which would actually be an excellent change, rather than some garbage about removing a delay that has a very real reason for existing?

People have already pointed it out to you but i'm going to say it again; you just want scanning to be easier.
You're denying it repeatedly i know, calling this a 'quality of life' improvement, but come on.
The only thing that matters when it comes to difficulty of scanning is sigs scanned per time.
I'f 1 method lets you scan 2 sigs a minute and another lets you scan 4 sigs a minute, well then the second method is twice as good/twice as easy.
you saying you want the cycle time removed just means you want scanning to be faster which means more sigs scanned in the same amount of time, ie; easier.

what you are failing to see is that the cycle time on probes puts a hard limit on the maximum efficiency of a scanner which needs to be there!
right now the cycle time is 4-4.5 seconds.
lets say scanner A needs 1 pass on each sig in a system because he knows what he is doing and is using a probe setup that allows for it, scanner B needs 2 passes because he's using the default probe layout and scanner C needs 3 passes because it's his first time in wspace and he's a giant scrub.
with the cycle time, scanner A is twice as fast as B and 3 times as fast as C. this is a significant difference that he has earned by having the skills and technique down for scanning.
without the cycle time he will still be faster by only by the fraction of a second it takes the other 2 scanners to adjust their probes since their secondary passes are instant which hugely reduces he edge.



How if this fair?
Giving everyone the ability to launch 8 probes was a huge mistake that already vastly reduces the advantage a maxed scanner has and removing the cycle time would make it literally pointless to train ANY astro skill past 3.

Scanning is one of the few areas (outside of PVP) where player skill actually matters a lot any youre trying to get rid of that. Just stop.

PS: Contrary to what seems to be popular opinion in the last few posts, the cycle time IS the biggest time sink for a good scanner and that's exactly how it should be. If it's NOT your biggest time sink, work on your scanning skills until it is.
(Cmon people, adding sigs to siggy is literally a single copy/paste once youve scanned every sig in system...)



Jack, you are overcomplicating this, firstly I am talking about the ENTIRE artificial scan delay, the 9+ seconds where nothing happens each time.
This applies to everyone, and no amount of skill experience, or other magic, can reduce this below this level.

It applies to everyone, noob, expert, dev, everyone, but noobs without astrometrics aquisition, have to live with the full part of the scan cycle affected by astrometrics aquisition that you refer to, so they are affected and have to skill up.

Let me try to explain again, you either wilfully choose not to understand, or I am failing to explain.

Get in a scanning ship.
Launch core or sisters core probes.
Select your initial scan.
Press the button,
Wait for things to chunter to life.
You hear the beep beep etc and your probes begin to warp.
You see the scan bar wipe across the display.
You get a result.

Ok so far? Was that 4.xx seconds? No?

Lets move on.
Do not touch the probes. They ain't moving anywhere are they?
Press the button.
Wait...The probes take 4-5 seconds warping nowhere, then the scan starts..... Still 9-10 damn seconds. What the hell happened to the bloody 4 seconds I should have with my skills!


Are you with me now, this is an artificial delay. The proposal is asking for the removal of the artificial delay.
If your only objection is that you had it hard, so why should anyone not have to suffer at least a bit.
Well there is nothing I can say to change such an entrenched position.
If we are relying on a completely artificial time mechanic, designed to make life a pain in the arse, to seperate us from noobs, that doesn't say much for us does it?

I respect your opinion even if I find it odd.
But you have the right to it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-11-17 22:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Your ignorance is making my head hurt.

WHATEVER the delay actual time is, it NEEDS to be there!!!
The fact that it IS there helps GOOD scanners and makes scanning relevant!!
Go refer to my above post if you're STILL not clear on why.

You know what would be best? just remove all delays and make sigs warpable without scanning! I mean, problem solved right?! no delay, no tedious 'needing to put in effort'.
fkn kids these days i swear to god...

I get exactly what delay you mean and i'm telling you in no uncertain terms that the hard limit on scanning time MUST exist.

tr;dr: your proposal is BAD and you should feel BAD.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

MooMooDachshundCow
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-11-17 23:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: MooMooDachshundCow
If you're spending almost as much time filling out your sig-mapper as you are scanning, you're either a very fast scanner, or your BM/sigmapping system has room for streamlining.

The way my corp BM's/siggy's I probably spend around 30s total on siggy per WH. More if I'm mapping POS'es and entering DSCANs but that's not relevant to this.

edit: I think that scan skills should effect your strength/deviation at least twice as much as they do now. As Jack mentioned, the scan skills are becoming irrelevant, and I agree that they should be made more important.

Yeah, well, it's just like my opinion, man.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#71 - 2014-11-17 23:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jack Miton wrote:
Your ignorance is making my head hurt.
WHATEVER the delay actual time is, it NEEDS to be there!!!
The fact that it IS there helps GOOD scanners!!
Go refer to my above post if you're STILL not clear on why...
You know what would be best? just remove all delays and make sigs warpable without scanning! I mean, problem solved right?! no delay, no tedious 'needing to put in effort'...
fkn kids these days i swear to god...

tr;dr: your proposal is BAD and you should feel BAD.


No Jack, I do not agree, first you inform us that the total delay is 4.x seconds and that is right and what it should be, once it is demonstrated it is a minimum of 9 seconds and more if the probes actually move, then that is right, that is as it should be.
Your position is the longer the delay the more advantage you have.
Each new hole added each new signature, increases your advantage,
I understand that.
I do not believe however that that is a reasonable position.
But you do, and I respect that and I do not expect to change your mind,
but I will not be persuaded that that is the right choice either, it is not in my opinion good for the wider community.
Hence My proposal.

I accept that our opinions are different.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#72 - 2014-11-17 23:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:
If you're spending almost as much time filling out your sig-mapper as you are scanning, you're either a very fast scanner, or your BM/sigmapping system has room for streamlining.

The way my corp BM's/siggy's I probably spend around 30s total on siggy per WH. More if I'm mapping POS'es and entering DSCANs but that's not relevant to this.

edit: I think that scan skills should effect your strength/deviation at least twice as much as they do now. As Jack mentioned, the scan skills are becoming irrelevant, and I agree that they should be made more important.


Absolutely right, scan skills and experience should be the determinant of whether a scanner is good or not in conjunction with the appropriate ship.

Completely artificial delay mechanics are just a poor choice, and any quality of life pass should get rid of bad meaningless mechanics.

According to the astrometrics aquisition skill, (depending on how they stack them and combine the bonuses) each pass should be about 4 seconds.

They are having an artificial 5+ seconds added to this, making astrometrics aquisition completely pointless past 3/4

The mechanic is an old vestigal one from WAY pre oddysey it seems. It has been forgotten, ignored, and is nothing but a means of adding meaningless wait times.

Let the skills determine how long it takes to scan, completely, without these sort of dinosaur mechanics.

Maybe people did not notice in days past when the scan time was way longer than today, 30 seconds i believe? And more sometimes? I admit before my time.

And a year or 2 ago, no one thought of having so many losec to losec wormholes,null to null so many signatures unheard of!
Then wormhole space got so many wonderful new connections, wonderful, new data and relic sites? Fantastic, frigate wormholes and now new frigate shattered space and normal shattered space as well, over a hundred new wormholes amazing. But hang on, why are we spending half our life scanning, what's going on?
We love them,and some hate them, for we are being overwhelmed with scanning all the good things. Let us all love them.

And here we see what is a large part of the problem. What on earth is this delay?

Hence my proposal to remove this artificial delay. This simply redresses some of the downside of all the new signatures.

CCP may however address this in a different manner, hopefully they will feel it a desireable goal.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-11-17 23:52:32 UTC
#ImOut

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#74 - 2014-11-19 11:42:59 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
#ImOut



You do know that giving up makes you an enabler Jack. Now you're part of the problem Lol

No No No No No No No No No No No No
No No No No No No No No No No No No

bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad
bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad

Find something that is broken to fix.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#75 - 2014-11-19 12:15:24 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


And here we see what is a large part of the problem. What on earth is this delay?

Hence my proposal to remove this artificial delay. This simply redresses some of the downside of all the new signatures.

CCP may however address this in a different manner, hopefully they will feel it a desireable goal.


Here is where you are wrong. It's not a problem. It's an inconvenience. Further, it's an inconvenience to you and a very small number of others.

See... a problem is where something is broken and doesn't work correctly. Scanning isn't broken. There isn't a problem with it. Here's the 'real time waster' warping. You should be able to R-click in space and be there. This whole artificial time waster to simulate getting from A to B doesn't serve any purpose other than to add boredome to the game.

And if we're going to save time, then let's get rid of scanning all together. I mean... if I'm going to get the signature to 100% anyway, then anything between immediately and when I currently get to it is wasting my valuable time.

WH space would be much better if we removed all the time wasters. Here's my vision for a perfect wh experience.

1. Jump into wh (which has a dashboard display showing exact time and mass left on the wh)
2. Gaze at my overview (custom set up to display all points in the wh that interest me)
3. R-click on desired object.
4. Instantly arrive at said object to interact with it as I please.
5. Move on to my next instant gratification whim.

Possible enhancements going forward would be:

1. Transfering sleeper loot and salvage directly to your cargo upon arriving at a site to save the time wasted shooting them.
(Once POS get fixed it could go right to the appropriate CHA tab)
2. ORE sites - just click on the roid of interest and your cargo hold is full.
(again once POS are fixed it could auto refine and end up in your selected assembly array if you have a refining array on line)
3. Gas sites - R-click and it's in cargo
(again again post POS fix it could go right to the output silo of your polymer reactor sets up - has to all be online of course)

I have soooooo many time saving ideas..... this is going to be awesome! CCP please fix all these problems that are forcing me to waste my valuable time playing the game.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#76 - 2014-11-19 12:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Big smile

I know, it is fun to play the role of devils advocate, but that's more devil's committee to find a reason "not to change the annoying crap forever as it's fun seeing people getting frustrated by old and reduntant mechanics"

But yes, of course your solutions taken to the logical conclusion means that one should just stay in bed don't even think of turning on the computer, and stuff ones face with pizza thats delivered directly to one's pillow.

I don't think I'm proposing that?Lol

The truth is, we are going to have to get used to little changes, as things we are used to and have learned to just work around are removed.

We cannot say they the old Pizza boxes, the sticky blobs of gum, the forgotten cat firball, and the socks that should have been washed years ago, all over the floor, added content and character.

They were simply not being bothered with.

Now we have a visionary, who realises that her family needs to tidy their crap up!

And they are, notice your skill queue recently?

But thanks for your post, it was really funny.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#77 - 2014-11-19 15:27:28 UTC
this thread is still going? ......
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#78 - 2014-11-19 15:29:15 UTC
You're really funny. Your idea is funny. You being so obtuse that Jack pulled the D ring on this thread is funny. Your stubborn is funny. Your lack of understanding of the word NO is funny. Your attempt to laugh off the light of truth I shine on you craptastic (that means bad and should be dropped) idea is funny.

You just not 'getting it' priceless
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#79 - 2014-11-19 15:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You're really funny. Your idea is funny. You being so obtuse that Jack pulled the D ring on this thread is funny. Your stubborn is funny. Your lack of understanding of the word NO is funny. Your attempt to laugh off the light of truth I shine on you craptastic (that means bad and should be dropped) idea is funny.

You just not 'getting it' priceless



Well, I am sure your opinion will carry the weight CCP decide it has.

Your desire for your opinion to have greater importance than theirs is interesting.

I am sure they will take that into account.Roll When they make THEIR judgement as to the value of the idea.

But people making decisions for CCP, and deciding what must be forever unchanged because (insert random player/playergroup in here) says that is what CCP want!

" I/We say so! " is not exactly working out so well for them, is it.

Or have you not been watching the patch notes and dev blogs?

Let me know how that works out for you.

But there again, never mind, I will probably see the answer to that question there for myself.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#80 - 2014-11-19 15:47:36 UTC
where has ccp stated they are toying with this idea? as far as i can tell this is your idea and you are asking for opinions.

well guess you have them.