These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1361 - 2014-11-17 13:43:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

But again...per you....there should be a real gank risk - so show me your kills.

If you don't have any (surprise) then you are implicitly agreeing that Bowheads are increasing the gank risk and therefore need more tank and a quicker align time.

Found one: https://zkillboard.com/kill/42294111/

Also, your implication is facile.


That guy didn't do the MWD+cloak and he didn't even fill all his lows ... he deserved to die :)
Hardly a good example of travel fit BS.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1362 - 2014-11-17 13:44:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

But again...per you....there should be a real gank risk - so show me your kills.

If you don't have any (surprise) then you are implicitly agreeing that Bowheads are increasing the gank risk and therefore need more tank and a quicker align time.

Found one: https://zkillboard.com/kill/42294111/

Also, your implication is facile.


Oh well done, its even travel fitted.


No, it isn't.
Empty low slot?
No MWD + cloak?
He could offline his guns and at least fit a plate or AAR or something.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1363 - 2014-11-17 13:48:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

But again...per you....there should be a real gank risk - so show me your kills.

If you don't have any (surprise) then you are implicitly agreeing that Bowheads are increasing the gank risk and therefore need more tank and a quicker align time.

Found one: https://zkillboard.com/kill/42294111/

Also, your implication is facile.


Not a travel fit....proving my point for me.....with full tank mods those 26 ships would have been nowhere near enough dps.

While travelling a brick tanked cloak + mwd battleships has very near to a 0% chance of being ganked.

A bowhead, which can be trapped through bumping, has a much higher gank chance.

I mean, this is trivial stuff.....at some point you just need to admit that you are wrong.


It has three inertia stabs on it, thats to get it into warp faster. Thats what a travel fit requires. Brick tanking is not a travel fit, its brick tanking.


Seriously?
Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank?
Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.

Bad guy is bad.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1364 - 2014-11-17 13:49:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Also, how do the bumpers keep the ship locked down without giving the target a weapons timer, which attracts CONCORD (which, by your own admission, makes the gank significantly more difficult?) Why doesn't the bowhead or freighter simply safe log the moment they start to get bumped?


So playing the game by not playing the game is how we should play the game if we fly a bowhead.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1365 - 2014-11-17 13:53:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Why doesn't the bowhead or freighter simply safe log the moment they start to get bumped?


I've actually thought about this myself, but given that safe warp brings you right back to where you started, don't the bumpers just have to keep bumping you again? Its not as if the bumper is under a time crunch given how slow those ships are to align.

You just stay logged off until the gankers go away. Scouting the gate with an alt helps you figure out when it's time to log in again.


Them shooting at you prevents the logoff I think. So when you disconnect on gate, you get warped 1 mil km off.....they quickly scan down and send a rookie ship to agress....this prevents logoff....the they bump away from concord....and come in for the kill.

Not if you safelog. Safe logout takes 30 seconds, and as long as you aren't aggressed, you disappear from space immediately after the 30s timer elapses. It is the premiere choice for Folks Logging Out In Space.

Also, when you log in again, you immediately enter emergency warp without having to align. There's no way for someone to aggress you before you initiate the e-warp, and if someone DOES manage to somehow, the GMs will reimburse your ship if you petition it.


But you will be agressed by a rookie ship so, you won't safe log off.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1366 - 2014-11-17 13:54:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
Oh and here we go

travel fit machariel found with a cloak and mwd found

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42170465/


Where is the tank?
Are you serious ? :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1367 - 2014-11-17 14:05:19 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
Euripedies wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.


Please, tell me how can you be proactive and protect a Bowhead.

You have only the choice of using a web alt, at which point you fly your ships to the destination 2 at a time and while you mission, run incursions, etc, you fly your 3rd BS with your second char and you have much more chances of arriving at your destination with your ships intact.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#1368 - 2014-11-17 14:06:28 UTC
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.
=====================================================
The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.
======================================================
This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?


I love your perspective on this ship, however, I'm cautious to support a clone vat bay (As awesome as it would be). There is already lot's of debate on the ship as a means to circumvent the force projection changes they're making to capitol ships. IF they were to avail us of a clone vat bay, I would feel even more strongly about removing the Jump Fatigue bonus on the Bowhead.


If correct the Bow is designed to be a Hi-sec ship transport primary with lo-sec capability as a secondary role.

My point was great we can move a fitted ship to x location I now have to JC to Y to move the clone to fly it back at x


So basically its a fat Orca then without the ability to boost

Hence the clone vat bay suggestion

BTW you can not jump in hi-sec only gate travel, so jump fatigue would not be an issue for me

So jump fatigue bonus not an issue as I fly hi-sec

Just need the ship and skill on SISI to test it
Done.
A bow is not a "fat orca without the ability to boost". It's a ship hauling ship.
At all V, assuming tank fit with t2 mods/t1 rigs and assuming they both have the same base resists, an orca has a 37.8s align time with 2au/s warp. Bowhead is 51.48s align and 1.37au/s warp. However!
It can carry over 4* the amount of ships that an orca can (not including cargo bay).
So yeah, for moving ships? This is better.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1369 - 2014-11-17 14:07:19 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kestrix wrote:

^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.


They will bring more ships, but eventually they will run out of players. Stealth is the ultimate safety, but that won't do here. Thus, tank is your safety. Or avoiding anything of value, but then there would be no use for the ship.


Or you could bring friends to scout and to provide reps if your ship is attacked friends can also bring safety
[/quote]

What is the point of the bowhead if you need more than 1 character (well, let's say 2 because a web char is always good)?
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1370 - 2014-11-17 14:14:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
If the gankers want to kill it, they should need to muster enough dps to do it the first time.


If you don't want it bumped, you should have to muster up the *snicker* one character and two webs necessary to avoid bumping with 100% surety the first time.


Guess what? Since I can already travel with 100% safety using cloak + mwd + brick tank, there is no way I am going to expose myself to significant risk by stuffing my stuff in a vulnerable hauler. If the only way to reach a comparable level of safety is to find someone to web for me (who can easily be ganked) that is a huge increase in effort and risk, and makes the ship effectively worthless to me.


Yes, yes, we all know you're proud of what a gutless coward you are. But that has no bearing on discussing this proposed ship. So stay on topic for once.


He is gutless coward because he doesn't give you a loot pinata in a paper thin ship?
This is good man.. this is good :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1371 - 2014-11-17 14:26:11 UTC
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.

Well I imagine he will argue that those people should of run maximum tanks had a webber a scout a booster and remote reps on site...


Yeah, but the thing is you need that amount of people. And no, they don't need all those alts. Just web and scout. Note: that's a joke, I see freighters go through Uedama all the time. Someone should count the amount of freighters that don't get banked over a week and then average it out to hourly unganked freighters.


So, if you need 3 characters, one for freighter one for web and one to scout... why would you even fly the bowhead instead of flying the 3 BSs at the same time?
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1372 - 2014-11-17 14:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariko Bukan
Given the bow favours shield buffer tank it suits me to fleet move it with a scimi backup.

I would still like to to see a clone vat bay option as this is not currently available in hi-sec
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#1373 - 2014-11-17 14:36:10 UTC
The Bowhead is the first freighter that would actually benefit from having a logistics escort. That, alone, makes it worth having.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1374 - 2014-11-17 14:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariko Bukan
A bitter vet trying to start anew.

Mentor new bros it's always furfilling

ooops off topic sorry
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1375 - 2014-11-17 15:04:19 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.

Well I imagine he will argue that those people should of run maximum tanks had a webber a scout a booster and remote reps on site...


Yeah, but the thing is you need that amount of people. And no, they don't need all those alts. Just web and scout. Note: that's a joke, I see freighters go through Uedama all the time. Someone should count the amount of freighters that don't get banked over a week and then average it out to hourly unganked freighters.


So, if you need 3 characters, one for freighter one for web and one to scout... why would you even fly the bowhead instead of flying the 3 BSs at the same time?


If your solo, don't stuff the shipp with all your goodies at once. If you are in a group, these things increase the amount of safety you can have and in turn, how many goodies you can stuff in said ship.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1376 - 2014-11-17 15:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.


Don't bullshit me.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42463226/

20 catalysts, and that was with an anti tank.

Now both of you knock off the crap.

[edit: Oh, and that was in a 0.5. If the sec level goes up, you need even more people.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1377 - 2014-11-17 15:23:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.


Don't bullshit me.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42463226/

20 catalysts, and that was with an anti tank.

Now both of you knock off the crap.



love the guy that was using civilian guns
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1378 - 2014-11-17 15:29:14 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.


Don't bullshit me.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42463226/

20 catalysts, and that was with an anti tank.

Now both of you knock off the crap.



love the guy that was using civilian guns


Want some another one?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26038278

20, mostly catalysts with T2 neutrons.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1379 - 2014-11-17 15:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.


Don't bullshit me.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/42463226/

20 catalysts, and that was with an anti tank.

Now both of you knock off the crap.



love the guy that was using civilian guns


Want some another one?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26038278

20, mostly catalysts with T2 neutrons.


same kill mail dude. the guy with 13 dmg and a civilian gun is still there.


edit: but good try. and dont get to hurt I thought it was funny. don't know why they didn't show in a noob ship instead of putting the civilian gun on a dessy
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1380 - 2014-11-17 15:38:19 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:

same kill mail dude. the guy with 13 dmg and a civilian gun is still there.


edit: but good try. and dont get to hurt I thought it was funny. don't know why they didn't show in a noob ship instead of putting the civilian gun on a dessy


I know it's the same one, it's a different killboard. They mess up the damage counts fairly often, but this one is consistent between them.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.