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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1341 - 2014-11-16 22:11:27 UTC
Euripedies wrote:

yes of course you are correct about the hisec capital kills, my point is that the current ganking meta, from my poor and humble perspective, is seemingly out of balance, Carrier ehp doesn't make them ungankable, just much more difficult.


It takes 30+ people to gank a freighter.

And it takes one extra person to completely avoid being ganked.

It's out of balance alright, but in the opposite of what you'd like to think.

Quote:

See that's the thing, why must the meta for the predators be at such a low bar?


It's not. In fact it's never been higher in the history of the game.

Now, you want to talk about hauling? Why the actual **** is the bar for you lot so low? Literally, if it weren't for ganking, you would need to push less than a dozen buttons to get it done.

Quote:
I think we should also consider that the three BSs could value in the four billion isk range. They are bulky and they are expensive. they are not faction titan BPCs being carried in an interceptor. They are in a capital hauler that's slow, give it some tank that will justify hauling around 4 bil in ships.


And you're failing to account for the immense factor this ship would play in saving you opportunity cost from having to move all three of them by yourself. It is a frankly enormous, ridiculous time saver, that gets bigger the farther you have to move.

You should pay for that bonus.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ashley Eoner
#1342 - 2014-11-17 02:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
It takes far less then 30 people to gank a freighter. I gank freighters on my own when I'm bored. It's pretty much the easiest way to make big isk in this game (other then sell plex).


If it takes you 30 people to gank a freighter then you need to stop using imicuses....




EDIT : Maxed out obelisk only has 370k ehp vs void. 10 talos would destroy that easily or you could go el cheapo and use 17 t2 neutron catas.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1343 - 2014-11-17 02:42:08 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

EDIT : Maxed out obelisk only has 370k ehp vs void. 10 talos would destroy that easily or you could go el cheapo and use 17 t2 neutron catas.


Because everyone in a gank fleet has all V skills? Or because EFT warrior-isms in any way reflect the realities of the day to day game?

Take that crap somewhere else, and stop pretending like you actually gank, you aren't fooling anyone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ashley Eoner
#1344 - 2014-11-17 03:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

EDIT : Maxed out obelisk only has 370k ehp vs void. 10 talos would destroy that easily or you could go el cheapo and use 17 t2 neutron catas.


Because everyone in a gank fleet has all V skills? Or because EFT warrior-isms in any way reflect the realities of the day to day game?

Take that crap somewhere else, and stop pretending like you actually gank, you aren't fooling anyone.
I trained a fleet of gank alts on my accounts and I was able to get to that point in a few months of dual training. It's not like it requires a lot of effort or even t2 guns for the talos to put out +1200 dps. Implants are super cheap and you really shouldn't be losing pods.

Do you always have such trouble with reading? I clearly stated I've been actively ganking freighters in game and I've been doing it for some time.

You're right though that the vast majority of freighter pilots don't have all V skills. I regularly overkill cause I assume they are maxed.


EDIT : IF I was assuming maxed skills the number of talos would fall dramatically. A maxed out talos ganker would do around 1800 dps which means 7 would be easily enough.

17 t2 catas might not be enough if the freighter is maxed and the catas aren't nearly maxed. Maxed out though 17 is more then enough in .5. 153m to kill a freighter? yeah that's el cheapo way.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1345 - 2014-11-17 03:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.


baltec1 wrote:

Highsec sees millions fewer ships destroyed than null sec as seen by CCPs own economics reports.

Link? As the last one I saw didn't say that.
The last one I saw also said most ship losses are to PvE, not to PvP.
So it certainly isn't a case of 'only Nulls PvP keeps the economy working' either way.
ashley Eoner
#1346 - 2014-11-17 06:25:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.

Well I imagine he will argue that those people should of run maximum tanks had a webber a scout a booster and remote reps on site...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1347 - 2014-11-17 10:11:19 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
If the gankers want to kill it, they should need to muster enough dps to do it the first time.


If you don't want it bumped, you should have to muster up the *snicker* one character and two webs necessary to avoid bumping with 100% surety the first time.


Guess what? Since I can already travel with 100% safety using cloak + mwd + brick tank, there is no way I am going to expose myself to significant risk by stuffing my stuff in a vulnerable hauler. If the only way to reach a comparable level of safety is to find someone to web for me (who can easily be ganked) that is a huge increase in effort and risk, and makes the ship effectively worthless to me.


We showed a few pages back that mwd-cloaky machs do, infact, get ganked. So no, you do not fly with 100% safety.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1348 - 2014-11-17 10:22:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Link? As the last one I saw didn't say that.
The last one I saw also said most ship losses are to PvE, not to PvP.
So it certainly isn't a case of 'only Nulls PvP keeps the economy working' either way.


You can find it in one of Dr Gumundssons' quaterly economic reports

Here is this years economic report. As you can see, null is the meat grinder.
tekpede
BLOMI
#1349 - 2014-11-17 10:38:19 UTC
Disappointed with the ship maintenance bay size. Lame
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1350 - 2014-11-17 10:47:02 UTC
tekpede wrote:
Disappointed with the ship maintenance bay size. Lame


You can fit an entire harpy fleet in one.
Dave Stark
#1351 - 2014-11-17 11:29:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
tekpede wrote:
Disappointed with the ship maintenance bay size. Lame


You can fit an entire harpy fleet in one.


but he can't fit all 30 of his pirate battelships in one. therefore this ship is entirely useless and a waste of dev time.
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1352 - 2014-11-17 12:12:15 UTC
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.

The stats for the ship are on the test server however the skill and ship are not so unable to test fit it.

Rigs are X-Large

stats indicate a shield buffer tank, with structure tank if lows fitted correctly so maybe a buff to armours resists.

The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.

One to fight or do logistics and a second to fly orca and be fleet booster.

This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?

My thoughts only correct me if the theory is wrong.

Regards
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1353 - 2014-11-17 12:30:45 UTC
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.

The stats for the ship are on the test server however the skill and ship are not so unable to test fit it.

Rigs are X-Large

stats indicate a shield buffer tank, with structure tank if lows fitted correctly so maybe a buff to armours resists.

The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.

One to fight or do logistics and a second to fly orca and be fleet booster.

This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?

My thoughts only correct me if the theory is wrong.

Regards


No, a 30 bil cargo should never be safe to transport. This ships tank is more than enough to transport a billion isk in ships which is on par with the other freighters.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1354 - 2014-11-17 12:33:25 UTC
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.
=====================================================
The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.
======================================================
This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?


I love your perspective on this ship, however, I'm cautious to support a clone vat bay (As awesome as it would be). There is already lot's of debate on the ship as a means to circumvent the force projection changes they're making to capitol ships. IF they were to avail us of a clone vat bay, I would feel even more strongly about removing the Jump Fatigue bonus on the Bowhead.
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1355 - 2014-11-17 12:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariko Bukan
then the ship is worthless

It has great potential
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1356 - 2014-11-17 12:38:03 UTC
As it is now the Bow is a big Orca, no real benefit as you still have to move the relevant clone
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1357 - 2014-11-17 12:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mariko Bukan wrote:
then the ship is worthless



Only to lazy, cowardly pilots. The bulk of freighter pilots do not fit tanks to their ships so saying a hauler with 2.6 times the tank is useless is just a flat out lie.
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1358 - 2014-11-17 12:51:37 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.
=====================================================
The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.
======================================================
This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?


I love your perspective on this ship, however, I'm cautious to support a clone vat bay (As awesome as it would be). There is already lot's of debate on the ship as a means to circumvent the force projection changes they're making to capitol ships. IF they were to avail us of a clone vat bay, I would feel even more strongly about removing the Jump Fatigue bonus on the Bowhead.


If correct the Bow is designed to be a Hi-sec ship transport primary with lo-sec capability as a secondary role.

My point was great we can move a fitted ship to x location I now have to JC to Y to move the clone to fly it back at x
Mariko Bukan
Zanshin - Everything and Nothing
#1359 - 2014-11-17 13:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariko Bukan
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Mariko Bukan wrote:
Great potential for incursion runners which was part of the intention of it being introduced.
=====================================================
The tank of this ship needs to reflect the fact it maybe carrying 30 bill of cargo otherwise it is not viable if subject to cheap ganks (it should be a Tiger tank).

Most serious incursion runners use 2 characters.
======================================================
This requires multiple specilised clones that need to be moved to use the transported ships.

So I suggest as Bowhead is a capital indi ship it should have a utility high slot for clone VAT bay to facilitate the clones needed to fly the transported ships?


I love your perspective on this ship, however, I'm cautious to support a clone vat bay (As awesome as it would be). There is already lot's of debate on the ship as a means to circumvent the force projection changes they're making to capitol ships. IF they were to avail us of a clone vat bay, I would feel even more strongly about removing the Jump Fatigue bonus on the Bowhead.


If correct the Bow is designed to be a Hi-sec ship transport primary with lo-sec capability as a secondary role.

My point was great we can move a fitted ship to x location I now have to JC to Y to move the clone to fly it back at x


So basically its a fat Orca then without the ability to boost

Hence the clone vat bay suggestion

BTW you can not jump in hi-sec only gate travel, so jump fatigue would not be an issue for me

So jump fatigue bonus not an issue as I fly hi-sec

Just need the ship and skill on SISI to test it
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#1360 - 2014-11-17 13:34:14 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Looking at some recent kills on Eve Kill
Ark, 11 Catalysts.
Obelisk 12 significant mix of Talos Brutix & Catalyst+ 1 KM stamper
Charon 6 Talos + 1 newbie ship
Charon 12 Talos, 4 Brutix + some random KM stampers.

So.... yea, lets stop with these delusions about 30+ people to kill a Freighter shall we Kaarous.

Well I imagine he will argue that those people should of run maximum tanks had a webber a scout a booster and remote reps on site...


Yeah, but the thing is you need that amount of people. And no, they don't need all those alts. Just web and scout. Note: that's a joke, I see freighters go through Uedama all the time. Someone should count the amount of freighters that don't get banked over a week and then average it out to hourly unganked freighters.