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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1301 - 2014-11-16 01:43:40 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I feel bad for ORE. all the ships they build get owned. you'd think they'd start putting an emphasis on tank.

But skiff....
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1302 - 2014-11-16 01:49:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#1303 - 2014-11-16 02:30:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).


Thanks for making it blatantly obvious that you actually know nothing about ganking or CONCORD response times.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1304 - 2014-11-16 02:47:12 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).


Thanks for making it blatantly obvious that you actually know nothing about ganking or CONCORD response times.


Be nice....an overheated Talos in a 0.5 with max skills is getting you close to 30k damage in the 22 secs or so before CONCORD shows up. 34 of them can theoretically knock out a 1 mil ehp tank.....and fewer pilots would work if you pin the guy down through bumping and hit with a couple of waves.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1305 - 2014-11-16 03:20:44 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).


Thanks for making it blatantly obvious that you actually know nothing about ganking or CONCORD response times.

So I was a few seconds off and don't gank on the occasions I do it by perfect mathematical precision. Want to try and tell me I'm wrong about concord being manipulatable (obviously both ways)
The basics of what I said still apply, since I didn't take the max damage possible either.

1 Million EHP does not let you carry tens of billions of cargo without being profitable to gank.
Not that I'm advocating the Bowhead should have that. Just restraining silly exaggerations.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#1306 - 2014-11-16 06:37:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).


Thanks for making it blatantly obvious that you actually know nothing about ganking or CONCORD response times.

So I was a few seconds off and don't gank on the occasions I do it by perfect mathematical precision. Want to try and tell me I'm wrong about concord being manipulatable (obviously both ways)


That part's right of course, but it's 25 seconds including the 6 you get for pulling. That's no small mistake since you were saying 30 before pulling.

Anyway, gank fleets really aren't normally anywhere near as large as some people here seem to think they are. Gankers are honestly a minority in EVE (so please stop discriminating against us!)
Zan Naaria
Doomheim
#1307 - 2014-11-16 09:42:13 UTC
The first thought that crossed my mind when I first heard of this new ship was "lol, CCP doesn't think it is enough that players loose one shiny ship to gankers, they now whant to make it possible to loose it all at once". My second thought was: "wow, this ship will have to be pretty darn close to beeing impossible to gank or else CCP will be loosing players that loose all their assets in one go". My third thought was: "CCP must av thought about that, they are not stupid and will not release a ship with a risk factor that high and thus ending up a very rare super noob sight in high sec". I hope the purpous of this ship is what you advertise it to be and not a painful isk sink!!!
Kestrix
The Whispering
#1308 - 2014-11-16 11:10:07 UTC
I guess it's time people started scouting ahead in hi-sec when moving high value cargo. I mean if code can get 34 people to destroy a ship why can't we get say 10 people to try and keep it alive on it's way to Jita and back?

Freighter runs might actually be fun again if they are made a corp/alliance activity. Or you could hire mercenaries if you are in an NPC corp.

How fun would it be to join a freighter/Bowhead convoy with team speak with competent scouts and both armed and logistical support?

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1309 - 2014-11-16 14:07:24 UTC

I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1310 - 2014-11-16 14:35:05 UTC
It's hitpoints are too high at present with a max tank fit.

It should be, comparative to the 3 (probably T2 or faction) battleships that are it's cargo, easier to gank. And it should be easier to kill because if offers the immense time saving benefit of flying all of them simultaneously.

That should cost you something. And since it's really unfair to penalize speed since it exists to save time in the first place, that means the best place to pay this cost is in it's defenses.

375k with max tank fit seems fair to me. It could stand to go lower, imo, but it ought to be higher than a typical freighter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Euripedies
Hot Droppin Cherry Poppers
#1311 - 2014-11-16 16:49:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.
Cecilia Smunt
Doomheim
#1312 - 2014-11-16 16:54:02 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I feel bad for ORE. all the ships they build get owned. you'd think they'd start putting an emphasis on tank.

But skiff....



shhhh, if they hear you, they'll nerf it back to being useless again..

o/
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1313 - 2014-11-16 16:54:48 UTC
Cecilia Smunt wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I feel bad for ORE. all the ships they build get owned. you'd think they'd start putting an emphasis on tank.

But skiff....



shhhh, if they hear you, they'll nerf it back to being useless again..

o/




you better behave girl.

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Kestrix
The Whispering
#1314 - 2014-11-16 17:13:14 UTC
Euripedies wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1315 - 2014-11-16 17:14:56 UTC
Euripedies wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.

Why should one player be able to tank the damage from 30+ players?

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1316 - 2014-11-16 17:16:28 UTC
Kestrix wrote:


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.



Increasing the cost per gank and the number of people required decreases the incidence of ganking.

You could imagine titans in highsec with tanks so large that suicide ganking them becomes functionally impossible. So adding tank definitely does increase safety.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1317 - 2014-11-16 17:34:06 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
Euripedies wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.


They will bring more ships, but eventually they will run out of players. Stealth is the ultimate safety, but that won't do here. Thus, tank is your safety. Or avoiding anything of value, but then there would be no use for the ship.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Kestrix
The Whispering
#1318 - 2014-11-16 17:47:11 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kestrix wrote:
Euripedies wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its utterly out of balance. These ships are not meant to transport tens of billions in near perfect safety and never will be.

Not to rebuff your point about things getting out of hand, but 1 million EHP would not allow you to carry tens of billions in safety. Given the 420/500k people are tossing around is break even at less than 2 Bill in some gank cases, a bit over 2 bil in the case of ABC's, 1 Million EHP would only allow perhaps 5 Billion before it becomes potentially profitable to gank, and always gives a green KB result anyway.
33.5k DPS per second. Or if we assume 1k DPS ships, 34 ships. And a 0.5 system with a 30 second concord response. (Which can be longer if Concord are drawn elsewhere).
34*120 Mil = 4 Billion.

So...... Try not to get carried away in how much safety you are pretending 1 Million EHP would actually give a ship.
Even if the current EHP is enough to keep it unprofitable to gank if the player is smart.



^^This,

Ive seen several Orcas killed by gank fleets, an orca can do something like 400k tank. 1 million ehp for the Bownaught is not a lot of ehp. Why should the gank fleets have the advantage? Give the haulers some safety in the form of tank. Let the gankers actually have to work at it. My perspective of the current ganking mechanic is that its out of balance. Its too easy to gank ships in Eve. I say that because when one ganker can cause trouble in a system over and over and over without any way for the miners to address the problem, then there is something out of balance. Ships cost isk, when a capsuleer loses a ship they lose isk which creates their risk averse nature. So those who have unlimited isk supplies have no aversion to risk. The gank metagame has evolved into this thing where those capsuleers who don't have access to unlimited isk are subject to the constant harassment of those who do have unlimited isk and can afford to throw gank ship after gank ship into the gankage. The new Bownaught should have tank and a lot of it. Stop making it so easy for gankers.


Tank is no safety at all. If you increase the tank they will bring more ships... where is the safety in that??? We the players need to be more pro-active in protecting our assets rather than running to CCP so they can hold our hands.


They will bring more ships, but eventually they will run out of players. Stealth is the ultimate safety, but that won't do here. Thus, tank is your safety. Or avoiding anything of value, but then there would be no use for the ship.


Or you could bring friends to scout and to provide reps if your ship is attacked friends can also bring safety
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1319 - 2014-11-16 17:51:52 UTC
Kestrix wrote:


They will bring more ships, but eventually they will run out of players. Stealth is the ultimate safety, but that won't do here. Thus, tank is your safety. Or avoiding anything of value, but then there would be no use for the ship.


Or you could bring friends to scout and to provide reps if your ship is attacked friends can also bring safety
[/quote]

Yes, but bringing friends to an already boring activity is incredibly painful. If I can't move my ships solo in highsec without at least a relative level of safety....something is deeply wrong with the game. Moving around in police patrolled space should not require an escort fleet.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1320 - 2014-11-16 18:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Sigh...


after being trolled or at best ridiculed for making this statement earlier, I am going to make it again.


Honestly, all that I see here with the requests for "drones for defense", "more ehp", more "fitting slots" is a high sec version of a carrier.

and by adding the "jump drive" request coupled with the reduction in fatigue that an "industrial" class ship gets is just an un-nerfed version of an existing carrier with a little larger sma and less drone damage.

so in null sec: force projection could still be somewhat more viable than what it is now with safely jumped sub caps for fighting pilots and a 90% reduction in fatigue to the bowhead pilot.

and in high sec; folks are wanting the ship to be virtually ungankable and honestly, that's neither realistic, nor is it true to the core of the game.

jmho

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.