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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-11-15 18:54:28 UTC
Ila Dace wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
The same can be said of putting modules on your combat based ships. It's not a choice of should I shouldnt I. It's a forced option just like the clone, because the consequences of not choosing is a blown up ship and no ability to kill anyone else.

So let's also replace module attachment with some other more fun mechanic instead of a boring one.

How about old games like Elite or Privateer? Putting armor on isn't a "choice". You buy it and do it not to die. In any game like that, the fundamental is that if you die, you lose time. Time invested in missions or the gain of in game currency. That means you have lost the time devoted to that stuff. The reset button or reload doesn't obviate you from this Cost. Similarly, the loss of a ship, and the loss of clone skill points for "forgetfulness" represents a loss of time/in game currency. SP are in game currency as much as ISK.

I don't agree that it's good game design objectively to try to "weed out" such decisions. I think it's subjective.
Quote:

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness.


All games punish forgetfulness in some manner. Particularly more skill based games that rely on co-ordination.

MidnightWyvern wrote:

Hopefully this excellent and intelligent post is the end of these stupid threads.


And you've been invaluable to the thread.

No. No, no, no, NO.

Game design 101: Skinner boxes punish forgetfulness. We see that in the monetization of frustration with Pay-to-Win games.

Good game design prioritizes trade-offs. Ship fitting is about trade-offs. What do you think tiericide and all the rebalancing has been all about? Trade-offs make sandbox games more fun, punishment trains avoidance. We don't want players to avoid PvP.

Good skill-based games do not punish forgetfulness. In fact they often account for it by giving you an "out". Forgot to buy healing potions before heading out into the wilderness? Lucky you, that baddy you managed to kill dropped a couple. Neither Elite, nor Privateer were skill-based. They were item-based. Most modern games are hybrids.

CCP Darwin hit the nail on the head. When one "choice" is so overwhelmingly bad, there's little reason to keep it.

If you feel you need to be punished every time you get podded, feel free to send me 100M ISK each time.


You're joking. Do you even play EvE? Every time you lose a ship in PvP, that's "punishment" via isk not to undock.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2014-11-15 18:57:50 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:


I really don't think it helps newer players any for vets to be afraid of fighting them in little ships, like frigates and such.


EVE has many penalties for death, and the stigma of losing your pod won't really change, in my opinion. I think you believe this change is a slippery slope, and from the standpoint of death being harsh maybe it seems like it.


But CCP seems to have a longer term plan with our clones. These guys are making sweeping changes to their game world and they seem to have some kind of vision. Maybe we don't always need to assume that their long term plans are detrimental to EVE.



You think Vets sit on stations or gates in T3's to repeatedly kill newbies because they're afraid of losing in a frigate fight DUE TO CLONE COST? It's about wanting to farm easy kills, and no loss of clone ISK or SP costs will change that behavior. It's very delusional to think that vets don't take frigates simply because they're afraid of the costs. They take bigger, more powerful ships because they want to win more than they lose.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#83 - 2014-11-15 19:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: embrel
13kr1d1 wrote:
Fun is all about a person's intrinsic motivators. It has nothing to do with game mechanics. It worries me that whatever complaints were voiced that are getting this removed are coming from the people that come into a game and complain about it instead of accept what is, when they'll be leaving in 2 months anyway because they already don't like the core of the game. The core of the game being exhibited by ancillary mechanics like clones, obviously.

Language is a funny thing. Calling it "anti-progressive" or "stagnant" implies a negative, despite reality being that sometimes things are the way they are for good reasons.

Quote:
Freedom of speech hasn't changed that much in the U.S. consitution. It's so anti-progressive and stagnant. Better change it.


As an example of why this strawman of calling things "anti-progressive" is exacttly that, a strawman.


So, start accepting that eve changes. Did so in the past too.

What remains are tears...
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-11-15 20:41:40 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Due to quotation limits:

Azda Ja wrote:
Apparently rote learning is preferable to meaningful decision making when designing a good game.


The concept of "meaningful decision making" sounds so positive because of the words used in it, however, the truth is that it's rhetoric and not substantial. There's no difference between selecting from 5 choices and 2 choices except that it can actually lead to MORE dissatisfaction. Why don't you look up on google why people with more choices are dissatisfied with their choice when they pick something?

More clone choices = more dissatisfied players = more leaving subs.

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en
http://www.fastcompany.com/3031364/the-future-of-work/why-having-too-many-choices-is-making-you-unhappy
http://www.columbia.edu/~ss957/articles/Choice_is_Demotivating.pdf

I wasn't willing to risk you blindly counter-arguing, so I made the choice to use google for you. Right now, KISS with clones works. We could stand to have better choices in more important venues.


I said meaningful decisions, not more decisions. While those studies are interesting, it has no bearing on the discussion. The clones are being axed because they provided no actual choice. That in itself is a good decision, whether they come back and add a new mechanic around clones is another story.


Reread CCP Darwin's original post in this thread.

Grrr.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2014-11-15 20:46:31 UTC
Tolkenmoon wrote:
Azda Ja wrote:
Tolkenmoon wrote:
Eve is turning into a theme park, clones are going the way of the skill que, they said it would never be longer than a 24hour slot so you could learn all the small skills without having to set the alarm clock. Yes you could put a long skill in at the end to make it longer. They caved in and made it as long as you want.

This game really is getting easy, befor long it will be wow in space.


Quality of life improvements != making the game a themepark.




How is it quality of life improvement?

Eve is supposed to be cold and harsh and you learn from your mistakes. By doing this they are holding your hand, you forget to upgrade your clone and die tough your fault.

Well, with that thinking, why not add ship fuel and maintained crews? More harsh and punishing. No benefit to forego the decision. Why do you think we have fuel alerts and fuel blocks and visible timers? Nothing says learn from decisions like not having stopwatches and calendars to plan every minute detail.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-11-15 20:55:40 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.



It's encouraging PvP, so it has my support. You stop. Now.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Tikitina
Doomheim
#87 - 2014-11-15 21:44:18 UTC
Clones grades as it is, is a terrible mechanic.
Having a med clone that costs as much as a HAC or even Command Ship is just silly.

Finally, it will be changed.
Saffron Noire
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-11-15 21:56:22 UTC
No, i want to fly a rifter again drunk with my buddies without the painful clone bill. It''ll be fun again
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2014-11-15 22:01:21 UTC
I'm also curious how the two arguments "eve should be hard and punishing" and "it's not a big deal at all to players" are holding water on each other in the same thread.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-11-15 22:01:52 UTC
Hm..... a change that serves vets.
And guess who's complaining?

Noobs.



Figures.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Drailen
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-11-15 22:02:20 UTC
Best. Change. Ever.

I resent paying an extra 63m isk each time I get podded and as the previous poster said, it will bring the fun back to Eve. Especially for those of us that have been here for over a decade.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#92 - 2014-11-15 22:11:36 UTC
I could see the basic clone not having any hardwiring implant slots, and having to upgrade the clone on a per-slot basis.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#93 - 2014-11-15 22:16:00 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Jvpiter wrote:


I really don't think it helps newer players any for vets to be afraid of fighting them in little ships, like frigates and such.


EVE has many penalties for death, and the stigma of losing your pod won't really change, in my opinion. I think you believe this change is a slippery slope, and from the standpoint of death being harsh maybe it seems like it.


But CCP seems to have a longer term plan with our clones. These guys are making sweeping changes to their game world and they seem to have some kind of vision. Maybe we don't always need to assume that their long term plans are detrimental to EVE.



You think Vets sit on stations or gates in T3's to repeatedly kill newbies because they're afraid of losing in a frigate fight DUE TO CLONE COST? It's about wanting to farm easy kills, and no loss of clone ISK or SP costs will change that behavior. It's very delusional to think that vets don't take frigates simply because they're afraid of the costs. They take bigger, more powerful ships because they want to win more than they lose.


Wrong. Many vets have complained about feeling priced out of fun frig roams.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2014-11-15 22:19:07 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I could see the basic clone not having any hardwiring implant slots, and having to upgrade the clone on a per-slot basis.

So long as an omega clone can have 50 slots for high-grade implants. Those glorious pod mails. And the futile attempts to unplug them all.
Drilla
Core Excavation Technologies
#95 - 2014-11-15 22:26:29 UTC
I don't care about clones - as long as I will be able to ransom a pod, if you can't do that anymore than the change is pure fail.

Perhaps let you scan implants when ship scanning a pod or finally let us extract implants from frozen bodies?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2014-11-15 22:59:48 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I could see the basic clone not having any hardwiring implant slots, and having to upgrade the clone on a per-slot basis.

that's the first idea I could see them doing. wish I'd thought of that.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
NoodleFace
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-11-16 00:00:40 UTC
0 likes to the OP, terrible troll is terrible
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2014-11-16 00:25:13 UTC
Maraner
The Executioners
#99 - 2014-11-16 01:00:09 UTC
I have lost BS 5 on more than one occasion. Not unhappy to see these changes at all, otten fly ships cheaper than the clone and to get smart bombed at a gate in low sec..... yeah over the lost clone cost. So sorry OP, disagree, happy with the changes, just hope to see more content to replace it.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-11-16 01:54:43 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ila Dace wrote:

No. No, no, no, NO.

Game design 101: Skinner boxes punish forgetfulness. We see that in the monetization of frustration with Pay-to-Win games.

Good game design prioritizes trade-offs. Ship fitting is about trade-offs. What do you think tiericide and all the rebalancing has been all about? Trade-offs make sandbox games more fun, punishment trains avoidance. We don't want players to avoid PvP.

Good skill-based games do not punish forgetfulness. In fact they often account for it by giving you an "out". Forgot to buy healing potions before heading out into the wilderness? Lucky you, that baddy you managed to kill dropped a couple. Neither Elite, nor Privateer were skill-based. They were item-based. Most modern games are hybrids.

CCP Darwin hit the nail on the head. When one "choice" is so overwhelmingly bad, there's little reason to keep it.

If you feel you need to be punished every time you get podded, feel free to send me 100M ISK each time.


You're joking. Do you even play EvE? Every time you lose a ship in PvP, that's "punishment" via isk not to undock.

No, losing a ship in PvP is not punishment. It is a reward for the other player(s) and a consummation of risk for you.

You're not forgetting to avoid PvP, you chose the risk knowing you might lose. Try again.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!