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Make battleships and battlecruisers worth the warp! 2.0

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Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#141 - 2014-11-14 22:10:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

This sounds like a ship I would like to know better, pardon my interrupting.

Can you show the fitting?
I would appreciate knowing something better, that earned such praise.


[Tempest, Im still cool]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Barrage L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Big brother of the old cane, fit in the exact same way only bigger. Much ignored by the wider population because they think battleships cant pvp in small gangs.


Yup and ishtars or sfis and logi will be out of range of it guns and neuts before it can even lock and drop it faster than they could drop a sabre. There are 25 other ships that you could bring that are more useful, and another 25 that at least wouldn't hurt the gang it was in before you should bring a tempest.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2014-11-14 22:14:18 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Yup and ishtars or sfis and logi will be out of range of it guns and neuts before it can even lock and drop it faster than they could drop a sabre. There are 25 other ships that you could bring that are more useful, and another 25 that at least wouldn't hurt the gang it was in before you should bring a tempest.


Please don't bullshit me.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#143 - 2014-11-14 22:57:08 UTC
A quick look at your KB for this toon seems to validate most everone's arguments about just how bad battleships are. TBH we are both likely fielding battleships as frequently as the other....as in, an average of one undocking per insurance cycle (not exactly worth it eh).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2014-11-14 23:04:22 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
A quick look at your KB for this toon seems to validate most everone's arguments about just how bad battleships are. TBH we are both likely fielding battleships as frequently as the other....as in, an average of one undocking per insurance cycle (not exactly worth it eh).


Problem with killboards is they show very little info. They shouldn't be used as any kind of evidence in terms of ship performance.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2014-11-14 23:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
baltec1 wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
A quick look at your KB for this toon seems to validate most everone's arguments about just how bad battleships are. TBH we are both likely fielding battleships as frequently as the other....as in, an average of one undocking per insurance cycle (not exactly worth it eh).


Problem with killboards is they show very little info. They shouldn't be used as any kind of evidence in terms of ship performance.


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2014-11-14 23:56:19 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv


The golem can slaughter entire fleets yet most think of it as a pure pve boat.

Battleships have never been seen as a small gang ship, that does not mean they cannot do the job and do it well. The pest is a fine example of an underestimated ship.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#147 - 2014-11-15 00:02:22 UTC
I think just re-adjust the warp factors. If they have reduced the ships, then the penalty is too high.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-11-15 00:15:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv


The golem can slaughter entire fleets yet most think of it as a pure pve boat.

Battleships have never been seen as a small gang ship, that does not mean they cannot do the job and do it well. The pest is a fine example of an underestimated ship.


The golem can do that, in the right circumstances, but similar levels of shenanigans can be had when a competent pilot, using bling, boosts, and implants when they go up against the right opponents with the right ship. Bastionaddes and MrHyde 113s videos are good examples of a few of the best possible scenarios for a golem, but it really doesn't reflect what the class can do as a whole against the range of opponents its likely to face.

The tempest fit you posted earlier is similar to the old nano pests. It's a flexible fit that can fill a dps and ewar role simultanously and people out there could certainly fall victim to it by underestimating it. I agree with you about that. I just don't think that it does any of these things well enough to justify bringing over another ship, particularly considering that it has a weak tank (read resists) for a battleship, aligns in 11 seconds with is prop mod off, warps at 2 au per second, is very vulnerable to bombing, and take a long time to target small opponents.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#149 - 2014-11-15 00:35:45 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv


The golem can slaughter entire fleets yet most think of it as a pure pve boat.

Battleships have never been seen as a small gang ship, that does not mean they cannot do the job and do it well. The pest is a fine example of an underestimated ship.


The golem can do that, in the right circumstances, but similar levels of shenanigans can be had when a competent pilot, using bling, boosts, and implants when they go up against the right opponents with the right ship. Bastionaddes and MrHyde 113s videos are good examples of a few of the best possible scenarios for a golem, but it really doesn't reflect what the class can do as a whole against the range of opponents its likely to face.

The tempest fit you posted earlier is similar to the old nano pests. It's a flexible fit that can fill a dps and ewar role simultanously and people out there could certainly fall victim to it by underestimating it. I agree with you about that. I just don't think that it does any of these things well enough to justify bringing over another ship, particularly considering that it has a weak tank (read resists) for a battleship, aligns in 11 seconds with is prop mod off, warps at 2 au per second, is very vulnerable to bombing, and take a long time to target small opponents.


Name a cruiser that can do the same job.

The resists are fine, it has a large enough buffer and the resists are on par with any other t1 ship. The align time is not 11 seconds, there are many factors that will change this time. I can get megathrons into warp alongside frigates even though according to EFT I shouldn't. The 2au warp is also not much of an issue in practice. Bombs are also a non issue, they only play a part in big fleet engagements and dont paly any role in low sec and high sec pvp.

In a scrap you won't say no to having this ship on your side.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#150 - 2014-11-15 01:04:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv


The golem can slaughter entire fleets yet most think of it as a pure pve boat.

Battleships have never been seen as a small gang ship, that does not mean they cannot do the job and do it well. The pest is a fine example of an underestimated ship.


The golem can do that, in the right circumstances, but similar levels of shenanigans can be had when a competent pilot, using bling, boosts, and implants when they go up against the right opponents with the right ship. Bastionaddes and MrHyde 113s videos are good examples of a few of the best possible scenarios for a golem, but it really doesn't reflect what the class can do as a whole against the range of opponents its likely to face.

The tempest fit you posted earlier is similar to the old nano pests. It's a flexible fit that can fill a dps and ewar role simultanously and people out there could certainly fall victim to it by underestimating it. I agree with you about that. I just don't think that it does any of these things well enough to justify bringing over another ship, particularly considering that it has a weak tank (read resists) for a battleship, aligns in 11 seconds with is prop mod off, warps at 2 au per second, is very vulnerable to bombing, and take a long time to target small opponents.


Name a cruiser that can do the same job.

The resists are fine, it has a large enough buffer and the resists are on par with any other t1 ship. The align time is not 11 seconds, there are many factors that will change this time. I can get megathrons into warp alongside frigates even though according to EFT I shouldn't. The 2au warp is also not much of an issue in practice. Bombs are also a non issue, they only play a part in big fleet engagements and dont paly any role in low sec and high sec pvp.

In a scrap you won't say no to having this ship on your side.


I wouldn't say no, but its particularly great. It cedes range control to most AB shield cruisers or must rely on external tackle exclusively, has less ehp than most drakes, has less than the quoted 800 DPS with the ammo loaded (admittedly, it does more with faction short range). It still has trouble hitting, say, a medium skilled frigate pilot without links and a single TD almost shuts it down for application.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2014-11-15 01:09:14 UTC
James Baboli wrote:


I wouldn't say no, but its particularly great. It cedes range control to most AB shield cruisers or must rely on external tackle exclusively, has less ehp than most drakes, has less than the quoted 800 DPS with the ammo loaded (admittedly, it does more with faction short range). It still has trouble hitting, say, a medium skilled frigate pilot without links and a single TD almost shuts it down for application.


Its becoming clear you arn't going to be happy until you get a vastly overpowered ship.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#152 - 2014-11-15 02:01:22 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I am COMPLETELY against any change that tries to make battleships travel faster insted of being more powerful. If you want to travel fast, use CRUISER.

And No Battleships do NOT have high dps.

Try to make a tempest with full tackle and minimally decent tank. Its DPS will be lower than several BC and Cruisers.



Why should battleships be that much slower? They are massive ships designed for front-line combat. Being slow on the field is enough.

They are like 1/10th the warp speed of frigates.. It's really, really, really bad. Even cruisers are disgustingly slow after flying frigates often enough.

Battleships should warp at cruiser speeds, with everything else warping slightly faster.

You can already do this by sacrificing some rigs or lows, or using implants. This thread is about making it worth using them with such modules or implants, or making them powerful enough without such things fit that they are worth it to use.


So yes, they are too weak.

Yes, they warp too slowly.

Thanks for agreeing.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-11-15 02:22:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Can confirm that KB metrics are outperformed by your anecdotal data. Roll

Edit: That was a little too snarky maybe, so sorry for being a jerk. I still think you're wrong though, and the evidence lies in the fact that the dominant doctrines and small gang behavior is definately not battleship oriented. If they were better people would use them. vOv


The golem can slaughter entire fleets yet most think of it as a pure pve boat.

Battleships have never been seen as a small gang ship, that does not mean they cannot do the job and do it well. The pest is a fine example of an underestimated ship.


The golem can do that, in the right circumstances, but similar levels of shenanigans can be had when a competent pilot, using bling, boosts, and implants when they go up against the right opponents with the right ship. Bastionaddes and MrHyde 113s videos are good examples of a few of the best possible scenarios for a golem, but it really doesn't reflect what the class can do as a whole against the range of opponents its likely to face.

The tempest fit you posted earlier is similar to the old nano pests. It's a flexible fit that can fill a dps and ewar role simultanously and people out there could certainly fall victim to it by underestimating it. I agree with you about that. I just don't think that it does any of these things well enough to justify bringing over another ship, particularly considering that it has a weak tank (read resists) for a battleship, aligns in 11 seconds with is prop mod off, warps at 2 au per second, is very vulnerable to bombing, and take a long time to target small opponents.


Name a cruiser that can do the same job.

The resists are fine, it has a large enough buffer and the resists are on par with any other t1 ship. The align time is not 11 seconds, there are many factors that will change this time. I can get megathrons into warp alongside frigates even though according to EFT I shouldn't. The 2au warp is also not much of an issue in practice. Bombs are also a non issue, they only play a part in big fleet engagements and dont paly any role in low sec and high sec pvp.

In a scrap you won't say no to having this ship on your side.


In a pinch I wouldn't say no, but in any more organized circumstance I would. Bombs are a factor outside of large fleet engagements and have become much more prevalent as the power of isboxer has become known. Moreover, this fit, as you posted, has an 11 second align time. Modifications of that fit to match the align and warp speed of cruisers results in a ship with significantly reduced ehp, dps, and range.

Ever flown a tengu? Or an orthrus? How about a claymore or a sleipnir?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2014-11-15 14:50:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And No Battleships do NOT have high dps.

Try to make a tempest with full tackle and minimally decent tank. Its DPS will be lower than several BC and Cruisers.




I get over 800 DPS with two neuts on a solo pest. It gets much more effective if you use it with other ships as you can forgo to tackle and go with basically a big brother to the old cane.



And that is HORRIBLE for the price you pay in mobility.


On other hand you can get FAR more than that with 3 heavy neuts in an armageddon.. and neuts with MORE range!!!

THe only things taht are strogn on battleships are EXACLTY the neuts. But droen battleships have a MASSSIVe advantage on those.

Drone battleships are basically the only ones in a good place ( as always I am talking T1, non faction/pirate battleships)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2014-11-15 14:51:34 UTC
One thing I already proposed that I think can catter both types of desires is. Give battleships a 4th rig slot!

Peopel wanting more speed can put a warp rig. OThers put a trimark, or a trackign rig etc...

And gives them a special capability of beign tuned and specialized into a specific role.


But do that only for t1 battleships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2014-11-15 14:55:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Yup and ishtars or sfis and logi will be out of range of it guns and neuts before it can even lock and drop it faster than they could drop a sabre. There are 25 other ships that you could bring that are more useful, and another 25 that at least wouldn't hurt the gang it was in before you should bring a tempest.


Please don't bullshit me.



But he is right. The reason tempests WERE used like that is because the lack of mobility was denied by the vast ammount of titan jump bridges that equalized travel movment on large fleets. All that sided with beign insurable (important for 0.0 groups).

ANY discussion about buffing battleships because they cannot travel fast will get ZERO contribution from your experience on a group that coudl throw them away with titans makign any fleet alwyas travel at same speed.


We are complainign of battleships beign weak to players, not to mindless drones on huge 0.0 fleets were a 5 lines script coudl euqalize all the "skill"that the battleship pilot employ.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-11-15 14:58:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

No such cruiser exists. Cruisers with one or two of these in combination are theoretically possible, but unwise in the extreme other than the speed and tank. The issue as I see it is that battleships do not have enough on-grid performance to justify their relative costs in SP, minerals and travel time with the changes to t2 cruisers and warp speed. I am trying to make a balance pass to put them in a place which is usable and justifies these costs relative to cruisers.


So, why are you not using this ship which you admit cannot be matched by cruisers?

SFM Hobb3s wrote:


...and that's why you are flying these, and not Harpies.


I don't, tisn't a megaBlink



BECAUSE any itnerestign fights are OVER by the time battleships arrive. Bevcause peopel discussing FIGHTS are not talking about 500 people bullshit.

And BTW, TENGUS basically OVERLAPED completely the battleships as ships of the line. So yes that cruiser exist (just ignore the specifics of beign AUTOCANNON ship)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2014-11-15 16:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Ever flown a tengu? Or an orthrus? How about a claymore or a sleipnir?



I fly battleships with tengus.

All this topic has shown me is that a bunch of frigate and cruiser pilots want battleships to act like the ships they fly. You jump into a battleship, see that its different and rather than adapt you come here to demand horribly overpowered buffs to battleships to turn them into cruisers and throw the entire ship balance out of whack. Hell the Mengu that just died the other day probably had more flight time than everyone else in this thread combined.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#159 - 2014-11-15 17:22:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bullet Therapist wrote:


Ever flown a tengu? Or an orthrus? How about a claymore or a sleipnir?



I fly battleships with tengus.

Good for you. you still didn't answer his question.


All this topic has shown me is that a bunch of frigate and cruiser pilots want battleships to act like the ships they fly.

All your posts have shown me that you haven't read anything that anyone has posted.


You jump into a battleship, see that its different and rather than adapt you come here to demand horribly overpowered buffs to battleships to turn them into cruisers and throw the entire ship balance out of whack.

Ignoring the fact that battleships lack a place in current balance outside of Nullsec blob doctrine.


Hell the Mengu that just died the other day probably had more flight time than everyone else in this thread combined.

I would like to order a sample size of one please with a side order of troll.




As a wormhole corporation, I can say that there is only one role our corporation would ever use a battleship for in EVE, and that's capacitor warfare. The reasons for this logic are that every role a battleship can provide for us can be done as well if not better than in a cruiser or battlecruiser hull. While this certainly could just be a lack of imagination on our part, the simple fact that so many people responded to this thread leads me to believe that our conclusion was correct.

That's not to say that people cannot be idiots, but it's less likely that this is simply as you put it, "...a bunch of frigate and cruiser pilots..." That's awesome man, ever considered why that is? Because those hulls offer more effective delivery of any role(with the exception of geddons and Bhaals, which are conceded by basically everyone) that battleships can provide.

I have yet to see a single post from you that isn't just a contrarian post for the sake of being combative. If you're not actually going to discuss the issue than **** off.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#160 - 2014-11-15 17:33:34 UTC
It should be clear now that we cannot discuss anything with goons.

Kagura dear, the only thing that will happen is that you get mad Sad

I get mad very easy but lucky for the rest of mankind so far I only got upset so far. Humans are making any attempt in improving life unnecassary difficult and depressing.

A small summary for what we are trying to do here:

- Battleships get better mobility

- Tech one battleships get better sensors as in signature resolution starting at 150mm for minmatar, 160 for Gallente, 170mm for Amarr and 180mm for Caldari, all of them, no exceptions.

- Faction battleships start at the same range at 155mm for minmatar, 165mm for Gallente, 175mm for Amarr and 185mm for Caldari.
All values for the sensors are maximum values with skills at V.

- Base target lock range for all battleships start at 100km.

- All turrets that shoot beyond 180km at this point get a tracking buff to accommodate for the shorter range(s).

- All additional minerals that were added to the battleship bpos will be reset to the old values.

Everyone except goons will be happy battleship pilots in New Eden.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever