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Worst Ship Bonus Thread
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vorneus
Hub2
#21 - 2011-12-14 22:51:05 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
vorneus wrote:

And the only other one that springs to mind:
- The Brutix's active armour tank bonus


What Shocked


You think that's useful? I'd like to know a situation where anyone would ever use this ship purposefully for active armour tanking.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2011-12-14 23:24:00 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hmmmm:
- Tracking link bonuses come pretty strongly to mind.
- Damage bonuses on Covops

Trackling link bonuses are amazing when you need them, just because your lowsec shenanigans don't find them useful doesn't mean they're bad :P

Also, <3 the battle helios. Lots of fun and highly underrated. I could see why people would hate the damage bonuses though.


The tracking link bonuses are damn near useless and help cripple the intended "solo" logistics. They need an active tank bonus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#23 - 2011-12-14 23:49:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hmmmm:
- Tracking link bonuses come pretty strongly to mind.
- Damage bonuses on Covops

Trackling link bonuses are amazing when you need them, just because your lowsec shenanigans don't find them useful doesn't mean they're bad :P

Also, <3 the battle helios. Lots of fun and highly underrated. I could see why people would hate the damage bonuses though.


The tracking link bonuses are damn near useless and help cripple the intended "solo" logistics. They need an active tank bonus.

-Liang

Could you please point me to an official post/statement that says that the scimi is meant to be used solo? Again, YOU might not like the link bonus, but I (as well as many others I'm sure) love it, and the fact that it isn't good for what YOU do doesn't make it bad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2011-12-15 00:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Cambarus wrote:

Could you please point me to an official post/statement that says that the scimi is meant to be used solo? Again, YOU might not like the link bonus, but I (as well as many others I'm sure) love it, and the fact that it isn't good for what YOU do doesn't make it bad.


Could we could start with the fact that the Basilisk and Guardian utterly outclass them if you're working in groups? Or maybe we could look at how the Tracking link bonus eats into the Scimitar's tank? Its a simple fact - the Scim and Ony are meant to be used in smaller gangs without many logistics... as such they need an active tank bonus almost arbitrarily more than they need a virtually useless tracking link bonus.

-Liang

Ed: I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but damn its pretty damn ******** to claim the tracking link bonus is remotely useful in 99.999999% of scenarios. Roll

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-12-15 00:25:58 UTC
Optimal range bonus on sub-battleships.
An Eagle's TWO optimal bonuses increases blaster range from 1.9+5 to 4.2+5.

Bonuses to MWD cap usage (I'm looking at you, Thorax and Diemost)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2011-12-15 00:28:26 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Optimal range bonus on sub-battleships.
An Eagle's TWO optimal bonuses increases blaster range from 1.9+5 to 4.2+5.

Bonuses to MWD cap usage (I'm looking at you, Thorax and Diemost)


You'd be really surprised how often that optimal range bonus matters... I went on a T1 cruiser roam in a Moa and topped almost all the killmails.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-12-15 00:41:23 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Optimal range bonus on sub-battleships.


The slicers optimal range bonus is pretty great as is the harpys.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#28 - 2011-12-15 00:44:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Could we could start with the fact that the Basilisk and Guardian utterly outclass them if you're working in groups? Or maybe we could look at how the Tracking link bonus eats into the Scimitar's tank? Its a simple fact - the Scim and Ony are meant to be used in smaller gangs without many logistics... as such they need an active tank bonus almost arbitrarily more than they need a virtually useless tracking link bonus.

-Liang

Ed: I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but damn its pretty damn ******** to claim the tracking link bonus is remotely useful in 99.999999% of scenarios. Roll

No, it's not a simple fact. If your gang can make good use of the TLs then there's going to be a use for the scimi in any size fleet (if you want a good example of this look at titan pilots)


You're going to make a claim about the tracking link bonus being useless "99.999999%" of the time and you want it changed to an ACTIVE TANKING BONUS?

Look. I get that you like to use your solo logi on lowsec gates.
I get that this role would be easier if you could get an active tank bonused logi.
But come on, do you really think an active tank bonus would be used more often than a tracking link one? 45% tracking links (52 if you spend the isk on faction, though that's moreso for PVE) is amazing, and you'll notice I'm not the only one defending it (there's a reason for this)
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-12-15 00:53:20 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but damn its pretty damn ******** to claim the tracking link bonus is remotely useful in 99.999999% of scenarios. Roll


It's useful in a lot of small gang situations, especially with the new tier 3s. I suppose if you eat sentries 23/7 it's probably pretty bad though, lol
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-15 01:11:55 UTC
Grog Drinker wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Optimal range bonus on sub-battleships.


The slicers optimal range bonus is pretty great as is the harpys.

It's fine with lasers, but terrible with hybrids.
The only time it works with hybrids is when kiting is possible.
Hmmm... Kiting with a Ferox? Lol


And, Liang, I doubt the optimal bonus got you on a high place on the killmail. An increase in optimal from 1.9 to 2.8 won't really do much.

Also, in those kills you only topped once. The rest of the time, a Thorax (Which used vespas instead of valks or hammerheads, thus sacrificing ~150dps) topped you in damage.
Furthermore, the killmail you topped was against a railgun Myrm with 3 warp core stabs.
Therefore, I can conclusively say that the Moa is a sad, sad ship because of its bonus. Imagine a damage bonus. Full shield tank + 3 magstabs & DCU + blasters + damage bonus = Cool

btw, congratulations on the fun roam Big smile
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-12-15 03:10:58 UTC
Do Information Warfare links count as a crappy bonus?Big smile
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#32 - 2011-12-15 03:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Cambarus wrote:

No, it's not a simple fact. If your gang can make good use of the TLs then there's going to be a use for the scimi in any size fleet (if you want a good example of this look at titan pilots)


The only time I've ever seen a Scimitar be useful with a TL is when trying to get 150km sniper fleets in low sec. In PVP, you'd be better off bringing a Rapier (Web + Painter > TL) and in PVE you'd be better off bringing either a Rapier or another DPS ship. Basically: TL bonus is useless outside of extremely niche situations where you're trying to squeeze range out of something.

Specifically, the only time I've personally seen the TL bonus put to reasonable use was for 150km Gate Gun Sniper Pests...... and even then its better to just bring a RSB Scorp and leave the range to the ship in question. Roll

Quote:

You're going to make a claim about the tracking link bonus being useless "99.999999%" of the time and you want it changed to an ACTIVE TANKING BONUS?

Look. I get that you like to use your solo logi on lowsec gates.
I get that this role would be easier if you could get an active tank bonused logi.
But come on, do you really think an active tank bonus would be used more often than a tracking link one? 45% tracking links (52 if you spend the isk on faction, though that's moreso for PVE) is amazing, and you'll notice I'm not the only one defending it (there's a reason for this)


It has nothing to do with low sec, and everything to do with small gang combat. If you're the only logi on the field and you're buffer tanked, you WILL be driven off in < 2 minutes. Its an inevitable fact of life because even a set of light drones is going to **** your day up.

Small gangs = Active Tank - and small gangs are what the "solo" logis are built for. Otherwise you'd pull your head out of your ass and fly a Guardian/Basilisk.

-Liang

Ed (Poast Timer):
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but damn its pretty damn ******** to claim the tracking link bonus is remotely useful in 99.999999% of scenarios. Roll


It's useful in a lot of small gang situations, especially with the new tier 3s. I suppose if you eat sentries 23/7 it's probably pretty bad though, lol


Rapier > Scimitar, by a lot for this purpose.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#33 - 2011-12-15 03:50:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The tracking link bonuses are damn near useless and help cripple the intended "solo" logistics. They need an active tank bonus.

-Liang


Sure, they don't help with your solo under-gate-guns logi, but I've run into people who rolled with double vindicators with double oneireses that could hit out to 70k with null. Not to mention the use of links in incursions. While an active tank bonus would be nice, the link bonuses aren't useless just because they don't mesh with your particular playstyle.




Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#34 - 2011-12-15 04:04:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


The only time I've ever seen a Scimitar be useful with a TL is when trying to get 150km sniper fleets in low sec. In PVP, you'd be better off bringing a Rapier (Web + Painter > TL) and in PVE you'd be better off bringing either a Rapier or another DPS ship. Basically: TL bonus is useless outside of extremely niche situations where you're trying to squeeze range out of something.

Specifically, the only time I've personally seen the TL bonus put to reasonable use was for 150km Gate Gun Sniper Pests...... and even then its better to just bring a RSB Scorp and leave the range to the ship in question. Roll

You have range and buffer as your tank in a logistics. Well, YOU don't, because of gate guns, but most people do. The tracking link bonus is niche, but then so is the bonus you suggest it gets replaced with. There's a reason EVERYONE here is disagreeing with you, and I would wager that most, if not all, of the people claiming that you're wrong are doing so because they either use the tracking link bonus, or have seen it used to great effect. And no, a web is not better than a tracking link, they are useful in different situations (though both is ideal most of the time)


Liang Nuren wrote:

It has nothing to do with low sec, and everything to do with small gang combat. If you're the only logi on the field and you're buffer tanked, you WILL be driven off in < 2 minutes. Its an inevitable fact of life because even a set of light drones is going to **** your day up.
Carry some drones of your own for dealing with lights. At the ranges you can sit out at you can see drones coming from a mile away (assuming you're even IN drone range).

You're in a ship that has 100% of its effectiveness out to 70+km, with the movement and size of a fatter frigate. THAT is your tank. Unless you have gate guns on you, in which case you are using logis in a rather niche way, and should not expect the game to cater to you.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-12-15 04:04:37 UTC
vorneus wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
I use tracking link bonuses a lot.


I don't personally, but agree that they certainly get used. Plenty of Incursion fleets wanting TL fitted Scimi's for example.


Yea, Schimi's it works. Its a 10% bonus on a ship with RR.
The Scythe has only a 3.5% tracking link bonus.
On a Scythe... are you really going to bring along a ship thats no good for reps or DPS, just to have it use weakly bonused tracking links?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#36 - 2011-12-15 04:06:50 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:

And, Liang, I doubt the optimal bonus got you on a high place on the killmail. An increase in optimal from 1.9 to 2.8 won't really do much. Also, in those kills you only topped once. The rest of the time, a Thorax (Which used vespas instead of valks or hammerheads, thus sacrificing ~150dps) topped you in damage. Furthermore, the killmail you topped was against a railgun Myrm with 3 warp core stabs.

Therefore, I can conclusively say that the Moa is a sad, sad ship because of its bonus. Imagine a damage bonus. Full shield tank + 3 magstabs & DCU + blasters + damage bonus = Cool


EFT DPS Difference: -24.6% (Less)
Vs the Binger: -6.2% (Less)
Vs the Myrm: 35.9% (More)
Vs the Sleip: -0.8% (Less)
Vs the Tempest: -18.3% (Less)

According to you, I should be expecting to see around 30% less DPS per fight... but I don't. And we're not going to count the fact I had 73% more EHP than he did. The optimal bonus just isn't useless - and its highly underrated. :)

Quote:
btw, congratulations on the fun roam Big smile


Thanks. ;-)

-Liang

PS: In case anyone's curious, he's talking about this: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-2F

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#37 - 2011-12-15 04:17:03 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The tracking link bonuses are damn near useless and help cripple the intended "solo" logistics. They need an active tank bonus.

-Liang


Sure, they don't help with your solo under-gate-guns logi, but I've run into people who rolled with double vindicators with double oneireses that could hit out to 70k with null. Not to mention the use of links in incursions. While an active tank bonus would be nice, the link bonuses aren't useless just because they don't mesh with your particular playstyle.


4 Domis are a vastly superior choice for this kind of thing. They hit harder, have more tank, have more RR, more neuts, more ... well, everything. Except cost. Again, TL bonus results in a suboptimal setup.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-12-15 04:21:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rapier > Scimitar, by a lot for this purpose.

-Liang


Rapiers don't extend the range on turrets. I was using a 2x TL Scimi to go max homo on some flashy duders with 70km optimal Oracles, **** was pretty cash and the pirates were mad as ****.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#39 - 2011-12-15 04:29:50 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

You have range and buffer as your tank in a logistics. Well, YOU don't, because of gate guns, but most people do. The tracking link bonus is niche, but then so is the bonus you suggest it gets replaced with. There's a reason EVERYONE here is disagreeing with you, and I would wager that most, if not all, of the people claiming that you're wrong are doing so because they either use the tracking link bonus, or have seen it used to great effect. And no, a web is not better than a tracking link, they are useful in different situations (though both is ideal most of the time)


Comments:
- While I have an enormous amount of experience in low sec as a solo logi pilot, I've also spent a fair amount of time doing it in high sec, low sec, 0.0, and WH space. If you're a solo logi, you NEED an active tank - you WILL be driven off the field in short order without one. Even range tanking... especially range tanking. Claiming otherwise is really pants on head.
- A web + painter is absolutely better in virtually all realistic circumstances. Consider the Vindicator example offered earlier. With an ony/4x tracking speed links, it'll get 1170 DPS vs a Tempest (196 m/s transversal). A single web boosts that to 1178. At range, the web bonus will keep things at range longer, provide better tracking, and more time to localize and kill - with ships that can actually hit out at range. Furthermore, each Vindicator could afford to drop four guns for RRs and still come out ahead from bringing an Ony along.
- Most of the people here don't fly Logis - they fly Vindicators in Incursions and want to "hit at 70km". Unfortunately, its probably not the best choice for the fleet as a whole.

Again, if you're using the TL bonus chances are you're doing it wrong.

Quote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

It has nothing to do with low sec, and everything to do with small gang combat. If you're the only logi on the field and you're buffer tanked, you WILL be driven off in < 2 minutes. Its an inevitable fact of life because even a set of light drones is going to **** your day up.
Carry some drones of your own for dealing with lights. At the ranges you can sit out at you can see drones coming from a mile away (assuming you're even IN drone range).

You're in a ship that has 100% of its effectiveness out to 70+km, with the movement and size of a fatter frigate. THAT is your tank. Unless you have gate guns on you, in which case you are using logis in a rather niche way, and should not expect the game to cater to you.


Even 70km and some small amount of mobility is insufficient. It really is.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2011-12-15 04:41:56 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rapier > Scimitar, by a lot for this purpose.

-Liang


Rapiers don't extend the range on turrets. I was using a 2x TL Scimi to go max homo on some flashy duders with 70km optimal Oracles, **** was pretty cash and the pirates were mad as ****.


Again, better ways to go about it. First, it makes your Scim fragile as hell (and thus a very likely expensive loss mail). Second, it wasn't even the best total effect your fleet could have done -- in such a situation the specific range isn't nearly as important as keeping them away. The fact that your Scim didn't end up as an expensive loss mail tells me that they weren't that great at catching things or applying DPS at range.

Thus, again, Oracles + Rapier > Oracles + TL Scim.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.