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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Cadence Abergnathy
Troll-Republic
#841 - 2014-11-12 19:39:27 UTC
Give this ship a bonus for Micro Jump Drives, so that the MJD cannot be disrupted by Warp Scramblers! Autopiloted ships will still be ganked, but actively flown ships have at least a chance to get away alive!
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#842 - 2014-11-12 19:43:42 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Sounds like I'm one of the very few who are actually looking forward to using one of these things. The change on the bonuses is a nice one, velocity bonuses on a large ship like this feel too weak to be of use.

Strangely, if you look into the past with the forums, people have practically begged on their knees for this exact ship for years...now, everyone seems to be pissed or sad-panda to see it finally arrive.

You people worry me sometimes.Sad


They're sad panda because they're not convinced this solution delivers the solution they actually wanted.


Then, I guess this is where I abandon any interest in this topic at least beyond Rise's initial post, since that seems like all that's being discussed by this point. We haven't even gotten the damned thing and people are already acting like they are terribly disappointed in it. Maybe I'm no longer quite sure what people wanted all along? I've been hoping for a ship that could carry a rigged battleship...simple, yet elegant in it's own right. That's what I see, and even better it'll be able to carry more than one. Hell, I was more afraid it was going to have a SMA only slightly larger than the Orca's.

No matter, I'm happy. Hope this thing turns out to be what others are looking for too...

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#843 - 2014-11-12 19:46:47 UTC
Nya Kittenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bertucio wrote:
Most of the problems discussed in this thread would go away if the ship maintenance bay simply wasn't scannable.

Yes - there will be killmails upon first release but it will die down to an average # of kills each month. There needs to be more risk involved for those who want to gank. Right now there's too little risk for gankers.


All you can see are the ships. Any mods on those ships cannot be scanned.

ATM,yes but soon enought that will be adressed as specified by Rise.


No he said ships will drop from a destroyed bowhead, he didn't say you could scan the fitted ships inside.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#844 - 2014-11-12 19:55:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nya Kittenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bertucio wrote:
Most of the problems discussed in this thread would go away if the ship maintenance bay simply wasn't scannable.

Yes - there will be killmails upon first release but it will die down to an average # of kills each month. There needs to be more risk involved for those who want to gank. Right now there's too little risk for gankers.


All you can see are the ships. Any mods on those ships cannot be scanned.

ATM,yes but soon enought that will be adressed as specified by Rise.


No he said ships will drop from a destroyed bowhead, he didn't say you could scan the fitted ships inside.


Considering that your group just ganked a Jump freighter in Uedama with only a couple hundred million of cargo, costing you well over a billion in gank ships, does it really matter? I mean this freighter ganking is not being done for ISK, hence the joy of ganking even empty ships! The idea that putting less cargo in, or being unscannable, will actually deter the 2 major freighter ganking groups seems farfetched.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#845 - 2014-11-12 20:01:38 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nya Kittenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bertucio wrote:
Most of the problems discussed in this thread would go away if the ship maintenance bay simply wasn't scannable.

Yes - there will be killmails upon first release but it will die down to an average # of kills each month. There needs to be more risk involved for those who want to gank. Right now there's too little risk for gankers.


All you can see are the ships. Any mods on those ships cannot be scanned.

ATM,yes but soon enought that will be adressed as specified by Rise.


No he said ships will drop from a destroyed bowhead, he didn't say you could scan the fitted ships inside.


Considering that your group just ganked a Jump freighter in Uedama with only a couple hundred million of cargo, costing you well over a billion in gank ships, does it really matter? I mean this freighter ganking is not being done for ISK, hence the joy of ganking even empty ships! The idea that putting less cargo in, or being unscannable, will actually deter the 2 major freighter ganking groups seems farfetched.


What makes you think there was no reason to gank this freighter alt?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#846 - 2014-11-12 20:05:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Considering that your group just ganked a Jump freighter in Uedama with only a couple hundred million of cargo, costing you well over a billion in gank ships, does it really matter? I mean this freighter ganking is not being done for ISK, hence the joy of ganking even empty ships! The idea that putting less cargo in, or being unscannable, will actually deter the 2 major freighter ganking groups seems farfetched.


What makes you think there was no reason to gank this freighter alt?


There are always lots of reasons - fun, tears, etc... the point is that the folks doing this aren't in it for the ISK - pretty sure they could make more isk with less effort AFK or semi-afk ratting in Deklein (carriers work great). Since it ain't being done for ISK discussions of break-even ship capacity or the ability to scan internal mods are pretty irrelevant. If the couple groups who gank these type of ships in highsec decide to gank the Bowhead, they will be doing it pretty much irrespective of profit and loss.
Bertucio
Chandra Labs
#847 - 2014-11-12 20:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertucio
The ganking of freighters lately in Uedama has been cheap destroyers - the total destroyers lost is nothing close to a billion ISK. The freighter pilots are the ones who have been losing a billion+ ISK including cargo and time to replace.

It's ridiculous that a bunch of dessies can take out a freighter in the game in hi-sec. The gankers risk a bunch of cheap dessies for whatever thrills they are getting from the gank.

And it is also ridiculous to expect all the single solo freighter pilots to now have escorts in hi-sec, just to move their Incursion and missioning ships around. Sorry charlie, most freighter pilots run solo and WANT TO RUN solo.

The game right now caters way too much to gankers.

If you want to take down a freighter in hi-sec - it should and ought to take much more than a bunch of cheap dessies to do it. The ganksters need to be at least in some hi-tech cruisers if not BSs to take down a freighter.

You know who's whining the most on this thread? Gankers who want to stay on the gravy train and don't want to risk jack *****.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#848 - 2014-11-12 20:09:09 UTC
WTB deployable bubble shield. Can be fitted to industrial ships and freighters only. It would give these ships a chance to respond to a gank if they are being actively piloted.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#849 - 2014-11-12 20:09:37 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Considering that your group just ganked a Jump freighter in Uedama with only a couple hundred million of cargo, costing you well over a billion in gank ships, does it really matter? I mean this freighter ganking is not being done for ISK, hence the joy of ganking even empty ships! The idea that putting less cargo in, or being unscannable, will actually deter the 2 major freighter ganking groups seems farfetched.


What makes you think there was no reason to gank this freighter alt?


There are always lots of reasons - fun, tears, etc... the point is that the folks doing this aren't in it for the ISK - pretty sure they could make more isk with less effort AFK or semi-afk ratting in Deklein (carriers work great). Since it ain't being done for ISK discussions of break-even ship capacity or the ability to scan internal mods are pretty irrelevant. If the couple groups who gank these type of ships in highsec decide to gank the Bowhead, they will be doing it pretty much irrespective of profit and loss.


And yet, 99.999% of freighters are not ganked.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#850 - 2014-11-12 20:11:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
The tank needs to be enough to incentivize incursion runners to use this ship instead of 100% safe highsec travel with cloak + mwd + travel fit. To the extent that this ship is vulnerable to the Uedama/Niarja gank folks it's not going to be used regularly, and will serve little purpose.
The ship already fulfils that prerequisite before we even take the 450k EHP it has into account.


How?
You can keep that ship to enter warp until next downtime if you find a bored cruiser pilot.
You can kill it with cheap throw away destroyer fits.

Yes, you need manpower but, the pilot of the bowhead has no means to make a run for it.
There is literally nothing he can do.
Why not make it like Orca. Give it a high slot, give it a drone bay so he can at least do something.


know how the ganker brought his friends?
well so can the bowhead pilot.

we've been through this tired old incorrect spew in every thread containing the word "freighter" for the last god knows how long.


There is no point to fly the bowhead if you need more than 1.. ok, let's say 2 pilots.
In the same time you fly the bowhead 30 jumps you can move 4 ships in 2 trips with 2 pilots and have time left o go and buy a pizza.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#851 - 2014-11-12 20:11:14 UTC
Bertucio wrote:
The ganking of freighters lately in Uedama has been cheap destroyers - the total destroyers lost of which is nothing close to a billion ISK. The freighter pilots are the ones who have been losing a billion+ ISK including cargo and time to replace.

It's ridiculous that a bunch of dessies can take out a freighter in the game in hi-sec. The gankers risk a bunch of cheap dessies for whatever thrills they are getting from the gank.

And it is also ridiculous to expect all the single solo freighter pilots to now have escorts in hi-sec, just to move their Incursion and Missioning ships around. Sorry charlie, most freighter pilots run solo and WANT TO RUN solo.

The game right now caters way too much to gankers.

If you want to take down a freighter in hi-sec - it should and ought to take much more than a bunch of cheap dessies to do it. The ganksters need to be at least in some hi-tech cruisers if not BSs to take down a freighter.

You know who's whining the most on this thread? Gankers who want to stay on the gravy train and don't want to risk jack *****.


What exactly is wrong with countering a fleet with a fleet of your own?
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#852 - 2014-11-12 20:12:21 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:

An incursion fleet needs about 15 to 20 vindis

ahahahaha


Hohoho, now that xmas it's coming ....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#853 - 2014-11-12 20:13:43 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:

There is no point to fly the bowhead if you need more than 1.. ok, let's say 2 pilots.
In the same time you fly the bowhead 30 jumps you can move 4 ships in 2 trips with 2 pilots and have time left o go and buy a pizza.


We went over this, the bowheads were faster at transporting 3 battleships over 30 jumps by a sizeable margin.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#854 - 2014-11-12 20:16:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Considering that your group just ganked a Jump freighter in Uedama with only a couple hundred million of cargo, costing you well over a billion in gank ships, does it really matter? I mean this freighter ganking is not being done for ISK, hence the joy of ganking even empty ships! The idea that putting less cargo in, or being unscannable, will actually deter the 2 major freighter ganking groups seems farfetched.


What makes you think there was no reason to gank this freighter alt?


There are always lots of reasons - fun, tears, etc... the point is that the folks doing this aren't in it for the ISK - pretty sure they could make more isk with less effort AFK or semi-afk ratting in Deklein (carriers work great). Since it ain't being done for ISK discussions of break-even ship capacity or the ability to scan internal mods are pretty irrelevant. If the couple groups who gank these type of ships in highsec decide to gank the Bowhead, they will be doing it pretty much irrespective of profit and loss.


And yet, 99.999% of freighters are not ganked.



That is certainly not true for freighters/JFs going through Uedama/Niarja the last couple of months.

And why would I trade the complete safety of my travel fit battleship, without any need for scouts/escorts, for this? I mean accepting substantial risk for a minimal reduction in travel time? Sounds crazy.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#855 - 2014-11-12 20:18:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"

edit, 64m per hull. so 40 hulls are 2.5bn isk already. this is before we even get in to fittings. that's not an insignificant cost...


If you have 40 people, why would you use tornados and not catalysts?
Have a bowhead (the irony) with fitted catalysts and have your people refit.

One cruiser will keep the bowhead away from warping while you send a few waves a cheap ships to kill it.


because the point is that logi reps can keep up with catalysts sufficiently long enough to allow a concord response. even more so with the bowhead than a normal freighter, as the bowhead can fit invulns and various hardeners to increase the repping power unlike normal freighters that are stuck with the base resist profiles.
unlike tornados just taking the ship off the grid before reps can be a factor.



You are wrong.
Freighters can fit some nice a-types, which are almost cheap, to raise resists.
Well, charon got the short stick here but some of the freighters can get nice resists.
Bertucio
Chandra Labs
#856 - 2014-11-12 20:20:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


What exactly is wrong with countering a fleet with a fleet of your own?



Uh - maybe some of us don't have a fleet and want to play solo. Like I'd guess 90% of the freighter pilots want to fly it solo.

So what are you saying - we should all bow down to a bunch of yahoo gankers in Uedama because you think we should have fleets coming out of our butts to make it more balanced when you use a bunch of cheap dessies to take down a billion ISK freighter?

Or maybe we should make a freighter a FREIGHTER and make HI-SEC a place where new players, solo players, and Industrialists can feel relatively safe while all the yahoo cheap dessy pilots can go gank in low-sec or nul-sec where they really belong?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#857 - 2014-11-12 20:22:29 UTC
Cadence Abergnathy wrote:
Give this ship a bonus for Micro Jump Drives, so that the MJD cannot be disrupted by Warp Scramblers! Autopiloted ships will still be ganked, but actively flown ships have at least a chance to get away alive!

agreed

nevermind that a capital ship such as the bowhead cannot fit an MJD
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#858 - 2014-11-12 20:23:59 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


That is certainly not true for freighters/JFs going through Uedama/Niarja the last couple of months.

And why would I trade the complete safety of my travel fit battleship, without any need for scouts/escorts, for this? I mean accepting substantial risk for a minimal reduction in travel time? Sounds crazy.


Tens of thousands of freighters move through that system every week. The number of kills are on average a few dozen.


As for your "completely safe" battleship, it has half the tank of the bowhead.
Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#859 - 2014-11-12 20:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nya Kittenheart
-Will the SMA on the BOW HEAD use of the actual the code of the ship maintenance array or the code of the ship maintenance bay ?Could that be answered dear CCP ?
-The SMA seems a bit low at l4 1.580 M just enought for a nightmare,a mach and a vindi at L5 you just gain enought room to get one more scimi ...i'd like to be more comfy as far as i'm concerned ...
-Any chance for an Ore bay ?
-Considering EHP this ship can be taken by probably around 20 to 21 Talos for a Cost of 2.4B ,that's seems low compared to 6 B investment it'll carry (2.2B in BS+2B in implants for a better efficiency than moving ships one by one+ hull cost +rigs)
-Skill wise i don't like at all the new skill would be better to use capital industrial +capital ships.
-Speed is a bit low if you don't use implants...
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#860 - 2014-11-12 20:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Bertucio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


What exactly is wrong with countering a fleet with a fleet of your own?



Uh - maybe some of us don't have a fleet and want to play solo. Like I'd guess 90% of the freighter pilots want to fly it solo.

So what are you saying - we should all bow down to a bunch of yahoo gankers in Uedama because you think we should have fleets coming out of our butts to make it more balanced when you use a bunch of cheap dessies to take down a billion ISK freighter?

Or maybe we should make a freighter a FREIGHTER and make HI-SEC a place where new players, solo players, and Industrialists can feel relatively safe while all the yahoo cheap dessy pilots can go gank in low-sec or nul-sec where they really belong?



I highlighted your problem here. I WANT to be able to 1-2 jump my carrier to empire to ferry stuff around like I could for YEARS. Now, after a patch I'm 6 jumps deep in null sec and have to wait out jump fatigue every jump unless i want to wait longer next time.

CCP doesn't balanced the game based on what you 'want' to do, it balances stuff based on what's best for the game. No one is forcing you to use this ship. if you do use it and want to protect it, you need to stop being solo (like I did, now i have to ask people for cynos to get to to and from empire with ships, or hire a jump freighter). Simple as that.

and no to the high sec entitlement BS. high sec is still in EVE, the 'yahoos' have every right to play there if they choose.