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Crime & Punishment

 
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CODE. Suicide Ganking is out of hand

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#41 - 2014-11-12 17:35:27 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Personally I don't haul at all, travel fit my ships + cloak + mwd, and don't autopilot, which makes me essentially 100% gank proof. Of course it's also not very exciting, and that tedium is the real result of CODE - spreading boredom as people take precautions to avoid the ganks.


The fact that high sec is not a safe place makes the game more fun. I find hauling to be quite a fun activity, especially with valuable cargo. Hauling is a PvP activity, since you are hauling against the risk of being ganked by other players, and lots of players in EvE enjoy PvP because it is fun!

As for CODE, well whatever conflict may occur between us in the game, they are creating content which can help people to have fun, and player-driven content is what EvE is all about. If there are players out there not enjoying themselves then maybe they should think about whether they are playing the right game!

Of course, CCP seem to have decided that intracorp attacks will trigger a concord response in high sec, but they have previously stated that suicide ganking is here to stay. I think it is a bit of a step too far to say that suicide ganking is out of hand because it is still quite easy to have fun playing the game, and as long as that continues, I expect it will remain a valid game mechanic.


I guess we have different definitions of "fun." The fact that when moving I need to spend a minute travel fitting my ships to make them 100% gankproof is not very "fun." It's actually pretty boring. The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers...talk to the highsec victims and see how many are having "fun."

I would expect an eventual crackdown on -10 gankers...the ability of CODE to sit in Uedama all day ganking freighters with no consequences will not be a long term reality....there is fundamentally no way in the current meta to really punish them, and I expect that to change.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-11-12 17:44:21 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers


This is wrong. There are antigankers having fun too, and then haulers like myself, as I previously said. Or do you not believe I have fun hauling? If there was no risk, it would be extremely boring stuff!
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#43 - 2014-11-12 17:53:45 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers


This is wrong. There are antigankers having fun too, and then haulers like myself, as I previously said. Or do you not believe I have fun hauling? If there was no risk, it would be extremely boring stuff!

confirming actually doing something about them is lots of fun...much more so than whining like a ten year old girl on the forums all day.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-11-12 18:05:46 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
The fact that high sec is not a safe place makes the game more fun. I find hauling to be quite a fun activity, especially with valuable cargo. Hauling is a PvP activity, since you are hauling against the risk of being ganked by other players, and lots of players in EvE enjoy PvP because it is fun!

As for CODE, well whatever conflict may occur between us in the game, they are creating content which can help people to have fun, and player-driven content is what EvE is all about. If there are players out there not enjoying themselves then maybe they should think about whether they are playing the right game!

Of course, CCP seem to have decided that intracorp attacks will trigger a concord response in high sec, but they have previously stated that suicide ganking is here to stay. I think it is a bit of a step too far to say that suicide ganking is out of hand because it is still quite easy to have fun playing the game, and as long as that continues, I expect it will remain a valid game mechanic.

This

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-11-12 18:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yeah, they killed a whole **ten** Freighers yesterday, dude. Roll

To me, that makes it seems like CCP needs to buff suicide ganking, since only the single largest group of gankers in the game can seem to get it done at any decent scale, and only then with a gigantic SRP for their members.

Bascially this. 10 freighters is about 3-5 hours of ganking (its impossible for one fleet to average more than 1 freighter per 15 minutes). We aren't even able to pull the numbers to have simultaneous fleets. If you ever see a single group kill more than 96 freighters in a day, then you will know its out of hand.

The really hilarious thing is that our freighter fleets are cash neutral even including the empty freighters we gank. The idiots carrying 3+ bill in cargo pay for everyone else to lose their ships.

Veers Belvar wrote:
I guess we have different definitions of "fun." The fact that when moving I need to spend a minute travel fitting my ships to make them 100% gankproof is not very "fun." It's actually pretty boring. The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers...talk to the highsec victims and see how many are having "fun."

I would expect an eventual crackdown on -10 gankers...the ability of CODE to sit in Uedama all day ganking freighters with no consequences will not be a long term reality....there is fundamentally no way in the current meta to really punish them, and I expect that to change.

Opening up the fitting window and clicking "fit" is too much effort now? As for a way to punish us, There actually are some decently sucessful white knights. The issue is that they are few and far between, and there is no organization between them. Our enemies already bring logi, ecm, and alpha ships to combat us. Every once in awhile we will have to deal with smartbombing mallers. The issue for them is the complete lack of organization on their comms. I spent some time in an AG fleet once. Comms were almost completely quiet until someone shouted "freighter died on this gate". It blows my mind that they think they can stop ganks without any reliable intel network within their active fleets.

In addition, AG's principled stand against ganking for any reason is self-defeating. To stop our fleets they need a valid understanding of our tactics, which they honestly don't have. Most of what I have read in the AG chat channel is hearsay, and obviously comes with no experience in practical application. The few people that do have experience or understanding of ganking quickly get banned.

In short there are a variety of viable counters to suicide ganking. How could there not be when in low/null/w-space players can counter agressors, but in high sec the agressrs have to also deal with constantly being hunted by NPC's? Don't blame the gankers for the incompetence of the gankees.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#46 - 2014-11-12 18:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:

1. CONCORD was designed to act as a law enforcement agency and punish criminals. There are 4 justifications for criminal punishment -

1. Moral retribution
2. rehabilitation
3. Protection of society from the individual criminal
4. Deterrence of other would be criminals

2,3,4 are certainly not occurring. And 1 would require far stiffer punishments, certainly restitution for the lost loot would be a minimum requirement. Law enforcement agencies that are unable to appropriately punish career criminals are not worthy of the name, and are little more than joke organizations.
Concord has a 100% "conviction rate", name a real world criminal justice system that can claim the same.

Quote:
There is no way that someone who blows up 10 freighters in a single day would be free to roam the streets, subject only to a 15 minute timeout.
Real life vs fantasy, know the difference.

Quote:
Also, the idea that without ganking highsec would be boring is not true - incursions offer a measure of PvP and competition without ganking....I find them enjoyable and engaging.

We don't need capsuleer ships exploding to have fun. What CODE really does is cause individual players to avoid activities like hauling, which hardly makes highsec more interesting.
Incursions : LOL, just because you find them to be fun doesn't mean that others do, personally I don't like incursions, mostly because of some of the elitist bellends that do them.

Explosions : Destruction driven economy, and you're full of it.

Quote:
2. With cloak + MWD + travel fit, close to 300k ehp, and not susceptible to bumping, you are virtually ungankable. It's just boring to need to travel like that in highsec....how is forcing people to use boring travel fits good for the game?
How is outwitting and outmanoeuvring those that would gank you boring? Getting ganked is the only content the afk and lazy contribute to the game.

Quote:
3. Awoxxing in highsec is deterring people from joining corporations. So are wardeccs. So is corporate theft. CCP realizes that deterring social engagement in highsec is bad for the game, and is taking steps to remedy that. I don't see how getting rid of awoxxing but keeping wardeccs and theft will accomplish that. CCP is prioritizing the 98% of non-gankers in highsec over the 2% of highsec that is gankers, which seems to be a fundamentally sound business move.
CCP feel that awoxing is deterring people from joining corps, whether or not that is true remains to be seen.

Wardecs and corporate theft are a downside to being in a player corp, tax dodging, POS's etc are upsides, it balances out, also citation needed.

Social engagement isn't only about sitting around a fire singing the theme to the carebears movie, it also includes shooting each other in the face. Anything that involves another player is social engagement, regardless of the circumstances.

You are in no position to say what are, and what aren't, fundamentally sound business moves. People like you are why games like Eve are a minority, you and your ilk want games that require no thought, that lead you by the hand and wrap you in cotton wool. I have one thing to say about that, get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#47 - 2014-11-12 18:27:56 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

1. CONCORD were designed to act as a lawn enforcement agency and punish criminals. There are 4 justifications for criminal punishment -

1. Moral retribution
2. rehabilitation
3. Protection of society from the individual criminal
4. Deterrence of other would be criminals

2,3,4 are certainly not occurring. And 1 would require far stiffer punishments, certainly restitution for the lost loot would be a minimum requirement. Law enforcement agencies that are unable to appropriately punish career criminals are not worthy of the name, and are little more than joke organizations. There is no way that someone who blows up 10 freighters in a single day would be free to roam the streets, subject only to a 15 minute timeout.

Also, the idea that without ganking highsec would be boring is not true - incursions offer a measure of PvP and competition without ganking....I find them enjoyable and engaging. We don't need capsuleer ships exploding to have fun. What CODE really does is cause individual players to avoid activities like hauling, which hardly makes highsec more interesting.

3. With cloak + MWD + travel fit, close to 300k ehp, and not susceptible to bumping, you are virtually ungankable. It's just boring to need to travel like that in highsec....how is forcing people to use boring travel fits good for the game?

4. Awoxxing in highsec is deterring people from joining corporations. So are wardeccs. So is corporate theft. CCP realizes that deterring social engagement in highsec is bad for the game, and is taking steps to remedy that. I don't see how getting rid of awoxxing but keeping wardeccs and theft will accomplish that. CCP is prioritizing the 98% of non-gankers in highsec over the 2% of highsec that is gankers, which seems to be a fundamentally sound business move.

internet spaceships veers, not real life.
concord are a punitive mechanic not a civil service.
2,3 and 4 are the responsibility of players.



Hey now! CONCORD does have some strong moral retribution tactics they use. You should see all the stern talkings I receive from them.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Iain Cariaba
#48 - 2014-11-12 18:29:18 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Personally I don't haul at all, travel fit my ships + cloak + mwd, and don't autopilot, which makes me essentially 100% gank proof. Of course it's also not very exciting, and that tedium is the real result of CODE - spreading boredom as people take precautions to avoid the ganks.


The fact that high sec is not a safe place makes the game more fun. I find hauling to be quite a fun activity, especially with valuable cargo. Hauling is a PvP activity, since you are hauling against the risk of being ganked by other players, and lots of players in EvE enjoy PvP because it is fun!

As for CODE, well whatever conflict may occur between us in the game, they are creating content which can help people to have fun, and player-driven content is what EvE is all about. If there are players out there not enjoying themselves then maybe they should think about whether they are playing the right game!

Of course, CCP seem to have decided that intracorp attacks will trigger a concord response in high sec, but they have previously stated that suicide ganking is here to stay. I think it is a bit of a step too far to say that suicide ganking is out of hand because it is still quite easy to have fun playing the game, and as long as that continues, I expect it will remain a valid game mechanic.


I guess we have different definitions of "fun." The fact that when moving I need to spend a minute travel fitting my ships to make them 100% gankproof is not very "fun." It's actually pretty boring. The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers...talk to the highsec victims and see how many are having "fun."

I would expect an eventual crackdown on -10 gankers...the ability of CODE to sit in Uedama all day ganking freighters with no consequences will not be a long term reality....there is fundamentally no way in the current meta to really punish them, and I expect that to change.

So you find having to gankproof your ship for travel to be boring? This seems to be entirely a personal problem. Personally, I kind of enjoy the little adrenaline rush I get when flying around with my highsec hauler. The fact that highsec is not 100% safe is part of the fun in this game.

But then again, I haven't shiptoasted all over the forums to the point where every ganker in the game would have a nerdgasm over getting on my killmail.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#49 - 2014-11-12 18:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
CODE Agent AC wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

internet spaceships veers, not real life.
concord are a punitive mechanic not a civil service.
2,3 and 4 are the responsibility of players.



Hey now! CONCORD does have some strong moral retribution tactics they use. You should see all the stern talkings I receive from them.

ShockedDoes grumpy concord guy wag his finger at you?! i don't think i could handle a finger wagging like that.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#50 - 2014-11-12 18:32:15 UTC
What I find is getting really out of hand, is the amount of Bad / Lazy players playing this game.

The fact that Code's killboard is very nicely padded, is testament to that fact

Bad / lazy Playing is a plague upon us, how long are CCP going to let this Carebear playerbase continue to destroy EvE.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#51 - 2014-11-12 18:34:23 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
CODE Agent AC wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

internet spaceships veers, not real life.
concord are a punitive mechanic not a civil service.
2,3 and 4 are the responsibility of players.



Hey now! CONCORD does have some strong moral retribution tactics they use. You should see all the stern talkings I receive from them.

ShockedDoes grumpy concord guy wag his finger at you?! i don't think i could handle that.
More to the point, has someone given Angry Concord Guy a ride on their nightrod, and does he own a trained attack fedo and a wife-beater?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#52 - 2014-11-12 18:39:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
CODE Agent AC wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

internet spaceships veers, not real life.
concord are a punitive mechanic not a civil service.
2,3 and 4 are the responsibility of players.



Hey now! CONCORD does have some strong moral retribution tactics they use. You should see all the stern talkings I receive from them.

ShockedDoes grumpy concord guy wag his finger at you?! i don't think i could handle that.
More to the point, has someone given Angry Concord Guy a ride on their nightrod, and does he own a trained attack fedo and a wife-beater?

he should

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#53 - 2014-11-12 19:09:16 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Personally I don't haul at all, travel fit my ships + cloak + mwd, and don't autopilot, which makes me essentially 100% gank proof. Of course it's also not very exciting, and that tedium is the real result of CODE - spreading boredom as people take precautions to avoid the ganks.


The fact that high sec is not a safe place makes the game more fun. I find hauling to be quite a fun activity, especially with valuable cargo. Hauling is a PvP activity, since you are hauling against the risk of being ganked by other players, and lots of players in EvE enjoy PvP because it is fun!

As for CODE, well whatever conflict may occur between us in the game, they are creating content which can help people to have fun, and player-driven content is what EvE is all about. If there are players out there not enjoying themselves then maybe they should think about whether they are playing the right game!

Of course, CCP seem to have decided that intracorp attacks will trigger a concord response in high sec, but they have previously stated that suicide ganking is here to stay. I think it is a bit of a step too far to say that suicide ganking is out of hand because it is still quite easy to have fun playing the game, and as long as that continues, I expect it will remain a valid game mechanic.


I guess we have different definitions of "fun." The fact that when moving I need to spend a minute travel fitting my ships to make them 100% gankproof is not very "fun." It's actually pretty boring. The only people having with fun with ganking are the gankers...talk to the highsec victims and see how many are having "fun."

I would expect an eventual crackdown on -10 gankers...the ability of CODE to sit in Uedama all day ganking freighters with no consequences will not be a long term reality....there is fundamentally no way in the current meta to really punish them, and I expect that to change.

So you find having to gankproof your ship for travel to be boring? This seems to be entirely a personal problem. Personally, I kind of enjoy the little adrenaline rush I get when flying around with my highsec hauler. The fact that highsec is not 100% safe is part of the fun in this game.

But then again, I haven't shiptoasted all over the forums to the point where every ganker in the game would have a nerdgasm over getting on my killmail.


How is that working out for the ganker clowns? 5,000 threats later, and not one legit kill....it turns out that the gankers are real good at blowing hot air on the forums and killing AFK haulers and AFK miners, but seem completely hapless against a single competent highsec PvE expert. Keep trying, jokers.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#54 - 2014-11-12 19:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
How is that working out for the ganker clowns?
Hypocrite, you tell others to refrain from using insults, and use insults to describe others....

Quote:
5,000 threats later, and not one legit kill

  • Are your pants on fire? Because you're lying about that number.
  • Opportunity vs effort, the first hasn't arisen yet, and you're not worth the second.

    • Quote:
    it turns out that the gankers are real good at blowing hot air on the forums
    Pot, Kettle, Black.

    Quote:
    and killing AFK haulers and AFK miners,
    People who choose to be AFK, in a game where you tend to explode if you're AFK Roll

    Quote:
    but seem completely hapless against a single competent highsec PvE expert. Keep trying, jokers.
    Oh look another lie, you're neither competent or an expert. PvE and joker are the only honest things in it.

    In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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    Vimsy Vortis
    Shoulda Checked Local
    Break-A-Wish Foundation
    #55 - 2014-11-12 19:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
    Considering that this is a CODE. thread and that CODE. are very specifically focused on killing AFK players and players that willfully make no attempt to avoid destruction in an effort to make those individuals actually play the game rather than just sit afk in a belt or autopiloting for hours it should not be surprising that they haven't killed you when you've been taking extreme measures to avoid them killing you.

    In fact you're doing what they want you to do. Being an active participant in the game who is aware of and compensating for the dangers around them.

    The only issue is that you don't like adhering to a standard set by other players. Your option is this: don't take action to prevent being ganked and face the consequences.
    Veers Belvar
    Swordmasters of New Eden
    #56 - 2014-11-12 19:26:02 UTC
    Well the insults started well before, if you care to read back...I am certainly entitled to defend myself, and will continue doing so. And the threats of retaliation for not following the troll "code" are legion, and all hot air. It turns out they don't have the competence to actually go after people who are expert at the game, like myself. So they will continue to go after new/casual players, collect tears, and eventually have CCP nerf their playstyle into oblivion. Remind you much of the awoxxers?
    Ralph King-Griffin
    New Eden Tech Support
    #57 - 2014-11-12 19:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
    I told you before veers narcissis, no one cares enough to waste any of their free time on you

    Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

    =]|[=
    Veers Belvar
    Swordmasters of New Eden
    #58 - 2014-11-12 19:28:40 UTC
    Vimsy Vortis wrote:
    Considering that this is a CODE. thread and that CODE. are very specifically focused on killing AFK players and players that willfully make no attempt to avoid destruction in an effort to make those individuals actually play the game rather than just sit afk in a belt or autopiloting for hours it should not be surprising that they haven't killed you when you've been taking extreme measures to avoid them killing you.

    In fact you're doing what they want you to do. Being an active participant in the game who is aware of and compensating for the dangers around them.

    The only issue is that you don't like adhering to a standard set by other players. Your option is this: don't take action to prevent being ganked and face the consequences.


    Actually, CODE insisted that I buy their permit, and threatened ganking if such a purchase was not made. I told them to get stuffed. They also accused me of "mining" PvP, and promised to bring my "CODE compliance" level up to 100%....all empty words and empty threats with no one to back them up. They want to fundamentally change the risk/reward in highsec and get people to leave it, and, as far as it applies to me, they have failed miserably.

    Keep trying Codebros...I'm sure someday you will get the minimal level of competence to actually come after me.....
    CODE Agent AC
    The Conference Elite
    The Conference
    #59 - 2014-11-12 19:29:06 UTC
    I shot at the station Veers has been docked up in. It did not end well, I must investigate different means. Maybe if I just use an ice miner!

    The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

    The terminal end of the digestive system. 

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    Veers Belvar
    Swordmasters of New Eden
    #60 - 2014-11-12 19:29:45 UTC
    Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
    I told you before veers narcissis, no one cares enough to waste any of their free time on you


    Except for the 32 page bounty thread and 1 bil bounty on my head Roll....It's not that you don't care...it's that you are too incompetent to actually achieve your goals. Stick to hello kitty online.