These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Musings of a Hisec Miner

First post
Author
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#21 - 2014-11-10 15:41:12 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

Jsuelieta
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-11-10 15:43:36 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.


Apologies for inappropriate thread placement. Was intended to be a ranty head-clearer, the last bit just flowed with it, didn't think anything of it.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#23 - 2014-11-10 15:48:17 UTC
Jsuelieta wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.


Apologies for inappropriate thread placement. Was intended to be a ranty head-clearer, the last bit just flowed with it, didn't think anything of it.

No problem. We all need to vent sometimes. Still, "please change mining because of the New Order or whoever else" is a hot-button thing in General Discussion that tends to invite all sorts of nastiness and generally does not get anywhere. The folks who frequent Features & Ideas Discussion are usually a bit more open-minded, plus they more often include the actual CCP developers responsible for actually considering and enacting changes. It is just a more fitting audience.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#24 - 2014-11-10 16:19:41 UTC
why should empire get more Tiered ?

i accept that some guys like to mine in a 1.0-0.8 system
and mine the ores that should be for newbies but they
lose in the end isk because its not efficient

Mining right know i newbie friendly enough i know back in the day my first hulk i mined over 2 month for it price a bit over 300.000.000 isk and the tritanium price around 2.3 isk and know a mack cost around 180.000.000 isk and the tritanium price is around 5.5

i mine even now in empire space and i never lost a barge not even once since i startet mining (ok i accept a few rats killed me in back in the day as tryd my first steps in 0.0 space ) but even there i did never loss a ship to an neut

i dont know if i m lucky or the newbies only stupid i will never mine in a system i did not check

i know i make me right know a target to all gankers good luck cause this is a forums alt and my mining acc is not relatet with any alts on this account
Jsuelieta
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-11-10 16:55:03 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
i dont know if i m lucky or the newbies only stupid i will never mine in a system i did not check


Checking a system isn't really the problem. I mean, you can check all you want, but if someone comes along with intent to kill after you've set up, your previous knowledge of a location is rather moot.
Dave stark
#26 - 2014-11-10 16:55:48 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I'm ready. tl;dr?

Miners the lowest tier... and yet everyone needs us. I laugh at them as they fill my wallet Twisted

/c


and they laugh at you as theirs fills faster.
Yi Hyori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-11-10 17:11:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I'm ready. tl;dr?

Miners the lowest tier... and yet everyone needs us. I laugh at them as they fill my wallet Twisted

/c


and they laugh at you as theirs fills faster.



if you have even 1% of Chribba's assets in form of liquid or assets, I will eat my socks.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-11-10 17:28:50 UTC
Yi Hyori wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I'm ready. tl;dr?

Miners the lowest tier... and yet everyone needs us. I laugh at them as they fill my wallet Twisted

/c


and they laugh at you as theirs fills faster.



if you have even 1% of Chribba's assets in form of liquid or assets, I will eat my socks.

I doubt he got the majority of those assets by mining.
Yi Hyori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-11-10 18:46:49 UTC
shhh besides the point :P

he made a personal point at chribba saying how others laugh at him as their wallets fill faster. i dont know of any individual who could make that claim :P

I'm sitting comfortably at around 200b or so in liquid and assets and I know chribba shrugs that off haha.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#30 - 2014-11-10 18:54:12 UTC
Jsuelieta wrote:
Nate Hill wrote:
Fly Skiff and New Order never existed.


That's part of the problem, isn't it? If one has to spend all their ISK on re-buying the lower tier barges and fittings it becomes pretty difficult to afford an exhumer that's roughly ten times the price, and if one is investing their training time in skills to improve their ability to mine or survive the effort, then running most missions for ISK is difficult as there's a general lack of offensive skills. Granted, years ago I heard rumors that a tanked out procurer was suitable for level II combat missions while using appropriate drones, I don't know if that holds true today.


They still are. Some range problems, but those can be circumvented. And taking the proc out of the belt and through the gate is a nice change of pace. Smile

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#31 - 2014-11-10 21:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Suicide ganking is at an all time low, there is no ore shortage, I don't see the problem you try to solve with your proposed change.

In fact the tools are already there for everyone, you can fit a Procurer, which is cheap like hell, with a massive tank and the chance that someone bothers you will get extremely low. But it actually depends on how you fit your ship and you have to do a minimal effort and actually care about how the spaceships and modules in EVE work. If you do care about this things, learn how to properly fly your ship and how to use the intel tools like local or dscan, then we are talking about almost perfect safety. It will be extremely hart and expensive to kill you with a suicide gank.

So why would you remove that choice and possibilities to become better than others and replace it with a built in mechanic everyone get's for free? I mean mining is already extremely challenge free, so why dump it down even further? It takes some time to become a barge pilot and that should be enough to make yourself familiar with the modules you need to secure your investment in that ship.

The New Order exists exactly because of this constant demands for perfect safety and removal of interesting choices. Ganking miners in Highsec was neft to a point that it is no longer profitable by itself, this completely disrupts the balance in comparison with every other type of space where you have to dock if a neutral enters local and AFK mining is not an option. We are founded by different sources but usually not by the suicide ganking itself, to bring some of the balance back that was lost by the constant nerfs.

If you are interested in more details why we do this and why it is necessary I recommend to read James 315's Manifesto II or listen to the SoundCloud recording of it:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101626
https://soundcloud.com/tags/manifesto%20ii
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#32 - 2014-11-11 22:42:33 UTC
I'm not that much in favour of your suggestion, but I do applause your standing on the miners debate. Exactly mine, expressed right. Bravo. Some people's hate on miners and industrius in general is ridiculous.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-11-12 14:08:10 UTC
What miners and production industrialists need to stop doing is considering their minerals or mining time "free".

Stop selling to buy orders that are crap. If you can't make a good profit for your time for the ore, stockpile that ore and don't sell any more. People will sell themselves into virtual world slavery to make a few isks as a miner. Don't buy into it. Mine but wait for the market to change. Enough people being intelligent at not selling themselves into slavery by instant sell orders to awful ore prices, and the whole system will shake up.

That's one of the problem with ISbox miners. They usually don't care about more than one or two accounts, so they can afford to spend RL money to make smaller profit margins while actually getting much more ISK than actual players, and funnel it all to one or two accounts, making more for a single account by using RL money than a player can on their own. They create stronger competition that also harms people who dont use the Isboxer botting tool, but these are stories for another day.

Demand needs to go up in order to get better prices for your ore. Sell your ore when its profitable compared to time spent. All trade is arbitrary in terms of value of a product. Arbitrarily decide your ore is worth more and don't sell it for less. If you stockpile for am onth and everyone else does too, demand goes way up and supply goes way down, suddenly your ore is very valuable. Then we'll see who's on the bottom of the chain.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Iain Cariaba
#34 - 2014-11-12 17:53:13 UTC
The detail that OP failed to notice when reading the code is that CODE. doesn't want to stop mining, they want to stop people who pretend to play the game while they are actually doing anything else but playing the game.

Ask any suicide ganker how to avoid getting ganked, and the first thing on the list is "don't go afk." Don't afk mine and don't autopilot around and you're pretty much immune from the suicide gankers. Add a tank to your ship rather than fit for maximum greed, and watch the gankers go after the anti-tanked ship while you fly right on by. If you actually pay CODE. for one of their permits, a small fee that you can earn back in a couple hours with a venture, and actually play the game instead of watching Netflix, you're pretty much set.

But, I waste my bandwidth posting this. You're a high-sec carebear and you don't care about how to protect yourself. You want CCP Mommy to nerf ganking again to protect you.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-11-12 18:26:13 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
The detail that OP failed to notice when reading the code is that CODE. doesn't want to stop mining, they want to stop people who pretend to play the game while they are actually doing anything else but playing the game.

Ask any suicide ganker how to avoid getting ganked, and the first thing on the list is "don't go afk." Don't afk mine and don't autopilot around and you're pretty much immune from the suicide gankers. Add a tank to your ship rather than fit for maximum greed, and watch the gankers go after the anti-tanked ship while you fly right on by. If you actually pay CODE. for one of their permits, a small fee that you can earn back in a couple hours with a venture, and actually play the game instead of watching Netflix, you're pretty much set.

But, I waste my bandwidth posting this. You're a high-sec carebear and you don't care about how to protect yourself. You want CCP Mommy to nerf ganking again to protect you.


Funny. Do you avoid even fights in PvP? DO you gank helpless ships? Do you use alts or multibox to scout/industrial/whatever to get ISK or protect your ships? You just might be a carebear, too.

You know what I'd much prefer? I'd much prefer corps can afford to hire on PvPers inside corp and pay them for their time protecting corp assets mining in belts. To offset said cost, miners would need to raise their ore prices. But then, why go to all that trouble in order to pay others? Why not just make some alt accounts to do the same thing and lower the competition on yourself for selling minerals, since now that you don't have to pay other players for protection, you can sell your product for less?

Take care calling others carebear if you've ever used alts in place of other players to do things so that you don't have to use ISK to buy services of others.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Iain Cariaba
#36 - 2014-11-12 18:40:19 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
The detail that OP failed to notice when reading the code is that CODE. doesn't want to stop mining, they want to stop people who pretend to play the game while they are actually doing anything else but playing the game.

Ask any suicide ganker how to avoid getting ganked, and the first thing on the list is "don't go afk." Don't afk mine and don't autopilot around and you're pretty much immune from the suicide gankers. Add a tank to your ship rather than fit for maximum greed, and watch the gankers go after the anti-tanked ship while you fly right on by. If you actually pay CODE. for one of their permits, a small fee that you can earn back in a couple hours with a venture, and actually play the game instead of watching Netflix, you're pretty much set.

But, I waste my bandwidth posting this. You're a high-sec carebear and you don't care about how to protect yourself. You want CCP Mommy to nerf ganking again to protect you.


Funny. Do you avoid even fights in PvP? DO you gank helpless ships? Do you use alts or multibox to scout/industrial/whatever to get ISK or protect your ships? You just might be a carebear, too.

You know what I'd much prefer? I'd much prefer corps can afford to hire on PvPers inside corp and pay them for their time protecting corp assets mining in belts. To offset said cost, miners would need to raise their ore prices. But then, why go to all that trouble in order to pay others? Why not just make some alt accounts to do the same thing and lower the competition on yourself for selling minerals, since now that you don't have to pay other players for protection, you can sell your product for less?

Take care calling others carebear if you've ever used alts in place of other players to do things so that you don't have to use ISK to buy services of others.

Train another level of reading comprehension, as my post has absolutely nothing to do with yours.

Random forum alt is not important.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-11-12 20:32:19 UTC
I liked your post because it was ironic.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#38 - 2014-11-12 21:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Jsuelieta wrote:
That's part of the problem, isn't it? If one has to spend all their ISK on re-buying the lower tier barges and fittings it becomes pretty difficult to afford an exhumer that's roughly ten times the price, and if one is investing their training time in skills to improve their ability to mine or survive the effort, then running most missions for ISK is difficult as there's a general lack of offensive skills. Granted, years ago I heard rumors that a tanked out procurer was suitable for level II combat missions while using appropriate drones, I don't know if that holds true today.

So you hate the New Order cowards, nothing new there. Most players do. Even though I'm not a miner, I too wonder why CCP allows a group which activity is despised by most of the player base to continue to exist across the years. In fact they have banned people for less than that, and if anyone thinks banning is too much of a punishment they always have the resource of "asking them to stop" as its described in detail in the EULA.

However, the New Order isn't everywhere. 90% of suicide ganking happens in systems of security 0.6 and lower. Above that, CONCORD responds too fast and their poor success rate is disencouraging, so there are still places where you can mine with relative safety.

In any case, as the veteran miner you claim you are, I believe you can make ISK fast enough to buy a dozen Barges and Exhumers per week. Your tale about having to rely on donations to replace your Exhumer makes no sense to me, after all, you are not mining for free, are you?
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#39 - 2014-11-12 21:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Havenard wrote:
So you hate the New Order cowards, nothing new there. Most players do. Even though I'm not a miner, I too wonder why CCP allows a group which activity is despised by most of the player base to continue to exist across the years. In fact they have banned people for less than that, and if anyone thinks banning is too much of a punishment they always have the resource of "asking them to stop" as its described in detail in the EULA.


Honestly, think of them as the "bad guy" wrestlers. The dudes you love to hate. There might be some decent peeps behind the eye-patch. They're playing a role that belongs in EvE. Real pirates preyed on those who couldn't fight back... and still do. So as much as I don't like the idiocy that is CODE., I don't really have a problem with gankers per se. Gankers do add content to the game, even if it's content some would rather avoid. And at its heart, EvE is about building and destroying. You know where on that line the gankers sit.

If a player or group crosses the line into harassment (see CODE. again), then they should get duly punished. Attacking or ransoming someone that's not armed IS piracy, it IS cowardly, but it CAN be profitable, and it's part of the game lore and mechanics. Working as intended, even if it is unfortunate for some.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-11-12 21:28:12 UTC
That was a pretty long read. There have been longer OPs, though. I'll start by saying that I like the way you think. At least you aren't crying about getting ganked and understand that gankers are a part of the system. However, I have to disagree with you in making ganking more difficult than it is. The number of factors that are already stacked against the favor of gankers are too many to be counted on two hands (that may be a slight exaggeration). I'm all for a risk-free, non-profitable means of practice for new players. But I certainly don't think that hisec should be divided into "tiers" where certain ships/modules aren't allowed to be flown/used. For starters, space in New Eden is already divided into four "tiers": Hisec, lowsec, nullsec, and w-space (which actually is divided up into 5 more "tiers"). We don't need hisec to be divided into low-high, med-high, and high. Hisec is hisec. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.

Secondly, hisec is where every new player begins playing Eve Online. The first time they ever log into Eve, when they pop their little Eve cherry, things can be really confusing. They don't need to be confused even more by having to remember even MORE "tiers" of space, how the security operates in those tiers, what ships they can use, what mods they can use, what ships/mods they can't use, where they can go to do certain things vs. where they can go to do other things, etc. etc. There's enough of that at the very beginning as it is. The learning curve for Eve is steeper than the learning curve for any other MMO, but let's avoid making it TOO steep, shall we? Smile

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Previous page123Next page