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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#741 - 2014-11-12 08:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Anonymous Forumposter
Dave Stark wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
I haven't really seen people argue against this mentality.

so, you haven't read half of the posts in the thread?


I've read every single post and not a single one of them argued against a situation for the pilot to overstuff and experience great loss. The ship has been presented by CCP as a solution for Incursion pilots. The reality of a good majority of incursion pilots is that they have multiple faction BS's and multiple logi's that they need to regularly move around. WIth that being the context, the average value they need to move regularly is well over the threshold for "you WILL be ganked". You also need to factor beyond the isk value. A single item worth 1 bil isk vs 10 items worth 100 million isk is more likely to instill greed in pirates and convince them to f1.

The argument is that this solution doesn't provide a reasonable enough solution to justify its risks for what it's been presented as a solution for.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#742 - 2014-11-12 08:36:34 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wanna hear a cool story ship maint bays as of now don't drop anything....


I've got a better story.

CCP Rise wrote:
Acquisition will work the same as freighters - there will be a NPC seeded BPO (with the same distribution as the Orca), it will be a bit cheaper than a freighter BPO, the Bowhead build materials will also be similar to other Freighters but will be be a bit lower. I would expect eventual market price to be 100 or 200 mil lower than other freighters.

It will use capital rigs.

I think it's been said other places but as far as loot - we hope to get a change ready in time for Rhea that will make SMA loot work the same as CHAs where the contents will be inside the wreck on ship death, it's still not totally clear if that will happen in time but it would be in the following release if not.

I'm not convinced about the EHP needing to be higher but I'll bring this to the rest of the team and get back to you.


Reading is hard yo.



Yes i read that particularly the part about trying to get that implemented in time.... my hopes aren't high

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#743 - 2014-11-12 08:50:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Yes i read that particularly the part about trying to get that implemented in time.... my hopes aren't high


So to you, waiting an extra 5 weeks for the fix isn't reasonable on any level?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#744 - 2014-11-12 09:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Basil Pupkin wrote:
stuff

This is like arguing with a brick.

You keep on going on about maths so lets see if you can follow these very easy sums.

one pilot in a bowhead can transport 3 battleships, lets assume each incursion runner owns two battleships and a logi. In a group of 20 you would use 15 bowheads to transport the battleships and logi and 5 pilots to fly a logi support when moving. To do this same move without the bowheads will require 3 trips. The bowheads just saved you a lot of time and by moving in a convoy they were all but invincible to gankers. Transporting your ships in this way is infact much safer than flying the battleships themselves as there is no force in high sec with the manpower or firepower to alpha something with the tank of a bowhead being supported with 5 logi.
Dave Stark
#745 - 2014-11-12 09:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"

edit, 64m per hull. so 40 hulls are 2.5bn isk already. this is before we even get in to fittings. that's not an insignificant cost...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#746 - 2014-11-12 09:36:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"


2.4 bil.
Dave Stark
#747 - 2014-11-12 09:38:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"


2.4 bil.


yeah just checked the jita price of nado hulls, the hulls alone come to about that.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#748 - 2014-11-12 09:40:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
stuff

This is like arguing with a brick.

This is like arguing with a goon.

baltec1 wrote:
You keep on going on about maths so lets see if you can follow these very easy sums.

one pilot in a bowhead can transport 3 battleships, lets assume each incursion runner owns two battleships and a logi. In a group of 20 you would use 15 bowheads to transport the battleships and logi and 5 pilots to fly a logi support when moving. To do this same move without the bowheads will require 3 trips. The bowheads just saved you a lot of time and by moving in a convoy they were all but invincible to gankers. Transporting your ships in this way is infact much safer than flying the battleships themselves as there is no force in high sec with the manpower or firepower to alpha something with the tank of a bowhead being supported with 5 logi.

All right, I admit I never thought about groups that big.
That said, a group of 20 people is just too big for hisec.
What about smaller (and more realistic) groups? Screwed?
What about bumping? Screwed as well, I guess.

I still don't see much use for it, though I admit the corner case scenario of a large group you described.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Dave Stark
#749 - 2014-11-12 09:42:25 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
That said, a group of 20 people is just too big for hisec.
What about smaller (and more realistic) groups? Screwed?


erm, if we're being realistic... an incursion fleet is 40 people.

so, 20 people is actually too small.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#750 - 2014-11-12 09:43:38 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"


2.4 bil.


yeah just checked the jita price of nado hulls, the hulls alone come to about that.


To put that into context 3 mach hulls are only worth 1.8 bil.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#751 - 2014-11-12 09:50:04 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We are the corp that invented industrialised ganking of freighters. With a bulkhead setup and three faction battleships in the hold it is unprofitable to gank.

Good girl! Now invent some math.
Hint: there is a difference between "actually not profitable" and "less than 1 billion per hour, meh, not profitable", which you intentionally avoid.

baltec1 wrote:
As for the incursion escort comment, it is entirely viable to run an escort as you will have to do multiple trips if you just fly the ships themselves. This is the entire crux of the argument. These ships sport a good tank and are virtually invincible with an escort of logi. Transporting 3x pirate faction battleships solo in one of these things is not ment to be risk free. You people are forever banging on about how close the incursion community is, its about time you showed this by working together rather than whining that you cant solo your way past 40 people.

You need more escort than ships you can stuff inside this whale, thus there is no point in using it, period. Training into travel fits doesn't take much nowadays - you don't need all those gunnery skills to fly it from A to B, so if you have people to escort, you have people to actually fly them, and since escort+bowhead is at least equal to 3 bs flying by themselves, there is no point in Bowhead, unless it can offer something flying 3 bs doesn't, like less gank vulnerability, faster travel, or anything else to make it stand out.

What's risk free here is ganking it: if you have sufficient force, you win, if you don't, you don't gank.

Flying it doesn't need to be risk free, but it sure as **** shouldn't be MORE risky than any other option. As it stands now, flying bs themselves is less risk, hauling them in freighters is less risk - which basically means that at current values the Bowhead is the most risk option, since it's risk free to gank it. I'd even say it's a suicide option at current values.

It should stand out to be used or it might as well not exist. With a risk-free gank on it, no advantages in speed, and requiring more escort than it hauls there is just nothing in it which is useful outside of blue donut.


I usually do not agree with baltec. But he is RIGHT this time. Incursiosn are the group that would have the LEAST issues making this thing work, as long as you guys use brains. You can send 10 of these ships together and paired by 4 guardians and it would be incredbly safe.

They will be useless as a solo "let me move my whole collection" type of ship. But I do not think that was their intended role.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#752 - 2014-11-12 09:53:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We are the corp that invented industrialised ganking of freighters. With a bulkhead setup and three faction battleships in the hold it is unprofitable to gank.

Good girl! Now invent some math.
Hint: there is a difference between "actually not profitable" and "less than 1 billion per hour, meh, not profitable", which you intentionally avoid.

baltec1 wrote:
As for the incursion escort comment, it is entirely viable to run an escort as you will have to do multiple trips if you just fly the ships themselves. This is the entire crux of the argument. These ships sport a good tank and are virtually invincible with an escort of logi. Transporting 3x pirate faction battleships solo in one of these things is not ment to be risk free. You people are forever banging on about how close the incursion community is, its about time you showed this by working together rather than whining that you cant solo your way past 40 people.

You need more escort than ships you can stuff inside this whale, thus there is no point in using it, period. Training into travel fits doesn't take much nowadays - you don't need all those gunnery skills to fly it from A to B, so if you have people to escort, you have people to actually fly them, and since escort+bowhead is at least equal to 3 bs flying by themselves, there is no point in Bowhead, unless it can offer something flying 3 bs doesn't, like less gank vulnerability, faster travel, or anything else to make it stand out.

What's risk free here is ganking it: if you have sufficient force, you win, if you don't, you don't gank.

Flying it doesn't need to be risk free, but it sure as **** shouldn't be MORE risky than any other option. As it stands now, flying bs themselves is less risk, hauling them in freighters is less risk - which basically means that at current values the Bowhead is the most risk option, since it's risk free to gank it. I'd even say it's a suicide option at current values.

It should stand out to be used or it might as well not exist. With a risk-free gank on it, no advantages in speed, and requiring more escort than it hauls there is just nothing in it which is useful outside of blue donut.


I usually do not agree with baltec. But he is RIGHT this time. Incursiosn are the group that would have the LEAST issues making this thing work, as long as you guys use brains. You can send 10 of these ships together and paired by 4 guardians and it would be incredbly safe.

They will be useless as a solo "let me move my whole collection" type of ship. But I do not think that was their intended role.


So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#753 - 2014-11-12 09:56:37 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
stuff

This is like arguing with a brick.

This is like arguing with a goon.

baltec1 wrote:
You keep on going on about maths so lets see if you can follow these very easy sums.

one pilot in a bowhead can transport 3 battleships, lets assume each incursion runner owns two battleships and a logi. In a group of 20 you would use 15 bowheads to transport the battleships and logi and 5 pilots to fly a logi support when moving. To do this same move without the bowheads will require 3 trips. The bowheads just saved you a lot of time and by moving in a convoy they were all but invincible to gankers. Transporting your ships in this way is infact much safer than flying the battleships themselves as there is no force in high sec with the manpower or firepower to alpha something with the tank of a bowhead being supported with 5 logi.

All right, I admit I never thought about groups that big.
That said, a group of 20 people is just too big for hisec.
What about smaller (and more realistic) groups? Screwed?
What about bumping? Screwed as well, I guess.

I still don't see much use for it, though I admit the corner case scenario of a large group you described.


Incursions are run in groups of 40 and any incursion corp will have many more members than that. The reality is that these conyoys are going to be numbering 100+ pilots when these incursion groups move.
Dave Stark
#754 - 2014-11-12 09:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
what's the cost of like 40 fully fit tornados? which is the obvious counter to "bring logi"


2.4 bil.


yeah just checked the jita price of nado hulls, the hulls alone come to about that.


To put that into context 3 mach hulls are only worth 1.8 bil.


even fitted you're probably only doubling the value, then assuming 50% drop rate as per other loot drop mechanics... we're back at an expected profit of 1.8bn which is still less than the cost of the 40 nados needed to "bypass" the logistics element of the convoy.

maybe a bit more, then again, just put 2 and a few cheaper logistics ships/command ships/drone bunny ships etc in with the 2 battleships to spread cost.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#755 - 2014-11-12 09:58:55 UTC
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:


So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.


You ask your corp for help moving.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#756 - 2014-11-12 10:05:31 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Warr Akini wrote:
Again, try not to assume too much about the ganker mindset.


I haven't really been involved in this whole ganking debate, honestly because it shouldn't be part of this thread. But I'd like to add my two cents at this point just because people don't have to assume anything about your mindset or motivations for this "mechanic" to be insanely stupid to begin with.

And before I get started on why, no I don't believe hi-sec space should be 100% safe.

That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization. In this case you can repair your sec an unlimited number of times. How does that make sense? What needs to happen is that the system needs to be modified so that hi sec gankers after a certain amount of ganks get un-repairable sec status so as to make it very risky for them to move around empire. This allows people to engage in the activity on a limited basis with actual true consequences for their actions should they try to make it a full time career.


if they made it a 3 strikes and your sec is unfixable per account .. then that would work as a deterrant i would think... and any further accounts using the same computer should be affeted the same.. too stop trial accounts/secound accounts expoting the rule.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#757 - 2014-11-12 10:07:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:


So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.


You ask your corp for help moving.


Doesnt the inclusion of a corp service kinda shrink the use cases to "i dont want to loose the insurance on my navy bs" ?
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#758 - 2014-11-12 10:07:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:


So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.


You ask your corp for help moving.



A VERY large chunk of people running incursions, don't belong to an incursion corp, much less a corp of anything other than themselves. It's also not uncommon for you to logout for the day, and log in the next day and have the entire community already relocated to the next site. So how is it practical at this point to relocate if the entire ship is balanced around needing logistics support? Beg and plead with the incursion community to travel all the way back just to escort me and my Bowhead all the way out there again? Perhaps I should just give up on this ship providing any actual bennefit and ignore the fact that it exists altogether. Because we all love ships that aren't practical and as such get neglected.
Dave Stark
#759 - 2014-11-12 10:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:


So how do you account for the pilots that aren't currently at the staging area and need to get there. Your strategy ONLY works in a perfect situation and completely falls apart otherwise.


You ask your corp for help moving.



A VERY large chunk of people running incursions, don't belong to an incursion corp, much less a corp of anything other than themselves. It's also not uncommon for you to logout for the day, and log in the next day and have the entire community already relocated to the next site. So how is it practical at this point to relocate if the entire ship is balanced around needing logistics support? Beg and plead with the incursion community to travel all the way back just to escort me and my Bowhead all the way out there again? Perhaps I should just give up on this ship providing any actual bennefit and ignore the fact that it exists altogether. Because we all love ships that aren't practical and as such get neglected.


if you're not moving the instant that an incursion focus changes, and you're only carrying your own personal assets. the chance of anyone bothering to gank you is minimal anyway.

besides, if the focus has moved and the fleets already up and full... you have all the time in the world to move your ships as slowly and safely as you want.

I mean, I've been known to do incursions once or twice. Would i ever use this ship? absolutely not. know why? i simply don't need it. a machariel and nightmare have enough cargo space for a travel fit and hours and hours worth of ammo. vindicators, maybe not so much because they chew through ammo fairly rapidly... but oh well, just suck it up and buy ammo at an inflated price at the new focus to tide you over until you can spare the time to resupply yourself with cheaper ammo from other sources.

this ship isn't meant to be "i can fill it with 25bn isk of **** and auto pilot it to wherever i want in 100% safety". it's just a convenient way of moving multiple battleships without losing rigs/insurance.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#760 - 2014-11-12 10:12:21 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Warr Akini wrote:
Again, try not to assume too much about the ganker mindset.


I haven't really been involved in this whole ganking debate, honestly because it shouldn't be part of this thread. But I'd like to add my two cents at this point just because people don't have to assume anything about your mindset or motivations for this "mechanic" to be insanely stupid to begin with.

And before I get started on why, no I don't believe hi-sec space should be 100% safe.

That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization. In this case you can repair your sec an unlimited number of times. How does that make sense? What needs to happen is that the system needs to be modified so that hi sec gankers after a certain amount of ganks get un-repairable sec status so as to make it very risky for them to move around empire. This allows people to engage in the activity on a limited basis with actual true consequences for their actions should they try to make it a full time career.


if they made it a 3 strikes and your sec is unfixable per account .. then that would work as a deterrant i would think... and any further accounts using the same computer should be affeted the same.. too stop trial accounts/secound accounts expoting the rule.


You just killed eve for families/students ect who share a computer and anyone who pvps in low sec plus anyone who accidentaly shoots things in high sec thinking its low sec and people who wish to give up their life of crime. Meanwhile the people who are neg ten all the time anyway are not impacted.

Please take these terrible ideas to another thread.