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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#661 - 2014-11-11 23:00:03 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

ccp has no obligation to ensure that you can move a very expensive hull safely

have you tried using a cheaper hull

Train reading comprehension to 1.
It's not an 'obligation'.
CCP have outright said in this very thread that this ship is intended to meet the needs of people like Incursion runners to move multiple BS/Logi around chasing incursions. If the ship is not able to move those hulls that are used for that task without being profitable to gank then CCP have outright failed in their intent.

Regardless of profitable, it still won't be 'safe'. There will still be plenty of ganks. Since a lot of ganks don't happen for profit.
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2014-11-11 23:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dradis Aulmais
Possible ore lore for this ship:

ORE developed this to move large fleets around mining centers. This ship allows the formen to meet and brief crews and captains while the ship is in transit. The ships captain will not have to divide his attention from traveling to briefing to security, the bowhead will deal with that while the captain and crew get mission details. Plus you don't have to worry about one of your minding ships warp/jumping to the wrong system.

The incursion runner aspect is just a bonus

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#663 - 2014-11-11 23:07:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

ccp has no obligation to ensure that you can move a very expensive hull safely

have you tried using a cheaper hull

Train reading comprehension to 1.
It's not an 'obligation'.
CCP have outright said in this very thread that this ship is intended to meet the needs of people like Incursion runners to move multiple BS/Logi around chasing incursions. If the ship is not able to move those hulls that are used for that task without being profitable to gank then CCP have outright failed in their intent.

Regardless of profitable, it still won't be 'safe'. There will still be plenty of ganks. Since a lot of ganks don't happen for profit.

no, you're mistaking their intention completely

their intention is to allow people to move multiple hulls around using one ship, it isn't to compensate for the incursion community's disgusting habits of bolting every single expensive module to a ship

the incursion community was used as an example because they are probably the most in need of being able to shuttle multiple ships around, but it was expressly couched with fitting restraint in mind (as in, the T2 fit, T1 battleships used as an example)

that you and yours feel they NEED to use expensive modules on a ship, and in turn have the ability to move them safely, is not something ccp has to compensate for
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#664 - 2014-11-11 23:09:10 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

no, you're mistaking their intention completely

their intention is to allow people to move multiple hulls around using one ship, it isn't to compensate for the incursion community's disgusting habits of bolting every single expensive module to a ship

the incursion community was used as an example because they are probably the most in need of being able to shuttle multiple ships around, but it was expressly couched with fitting restraint in mind (as in, the T2 fit, T1 battleships used as an example)

that you and yours feel they NEED to use expensive modules on a ship, and in turn have the ability to move them safely, is not something ccp has to compensate for

Quit misquoting me.
This is NOTHING to do with the modules.
I am already assuming the modules have been removed from the ship and are being taken separately. Because, you know, that's already what the incursion communities do.

This is about moving bare rigged hulls without being profitable to gank automatically.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#665 - 2014-11-11 23:12:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Quit misquoting me.
This is NOTHING to do with the modules.
I am already assuming the modules have been removed from the ship and are being taken separately. Because, you know, that's already what the incursion communities do.

This is about moving bare rigged hulls without being profitable to gank automatically.

the same principle still applies

use less expensive hulls
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#666 - 2014-11-11 23:17:08 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the same principle still applies
use less expensive hulls

Live in less expensive space. Don't use Capitals. Blah blah, you want to try and tell people to use bad tools for the job, don't constantly defend your 'need' to have expensive things and be able to run SRP's in return.

The same principle does not apply, you use the correct tool for the job.

We are also assuming the person is actually max tanking the Bowhead here. Not fitting it for agility & warp speed in which case it would be profitable to gank while carrying more expensive hulls. Good RNG says even at MAX tank it can still be profitable to gank carrying marauders, certainly profitable to gank carrying rigged T3's, and probably profitable to gank if filled with a bunch of smaller T2 ships also.

So, the EHP bump that CCP gave it was needed to fufill it's intended role, It was not over the top, and it's EHP was not sufficient before because CCP were basing it on pretty much the cheapest possible option you could be using the Bowhead for, not a realistic situation.
Does it need even further EHP? Not that I can see either.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#667 - 2014-11-11 23:31:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the same principle still applies
use less expensive hulls

Live in less expensive space. Don't use Capitals. Blah blah, you want to try and tell people to use bad tools for the job, don't constantly defend your 'need' to have expensive things and be able to run SRP's in return.


please tell me more about the costs of living in space and how SRP programs work

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

The same principle does not apply, you use the correct tool for the job.

We are also assuming the person is actually max tanking the Bowhead here. Not fitting it for agility & warp speed in which case it would be profitable to gank while carrying more expensive hulls. Good RNG says even at MAX tank it can still be profitable to gank carrying marauders, certainly profitable to gank carrying rigged T3's, and probably profitable to gank if filled with a bunch of smaller T2 ships also.

So, the EHP bump that CCP gave it was needed to fufill it's intended role, It was not over the top, and it's EHP was not sufficient before because CCP were basing it on pretty much the cheapest possible option you could be using the Bowhead for, not a realistic situation.
Does it need even further EHP? Not that I can see either.

lmao at pirate faction battleships being "realistic"
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#668 - 2014-11-11 23:34:57 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmao at pirate faction battleships being "realistic"

Because that is the realistic meta you are dealing with when it comes to the people CCP said they intended this ship to serve.
There are PVP groups in low/null that use Pirate BS on a small scale. Your own alliance uses Navy BS on a massive scale. Basing something off the cheapest possible use of it is certainly not realistic, and that's what CCP were doing to start with.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#669 - 2014-11-11 23:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Quit misquoting me.
This is NOTHING to do with the modules.
I am already assuming the modules have been removed from the ship and are being taken separately. Because, you know, that's already what the incursion communities do.

This is about moving bare rigged hulls without being profitable to gank automatically.

the same principle still applies

use less expensive hulls


Incursions are meant to be run in pirate faction ships. Using T1 hulls renders you unable to win contests and means your rewards are far inferior to blitzing L4s. To the extent this ship was meant to help incursion runners, the relevant metrics involve putting pirate hulls inside.

Edit - meant to as in because of the competitive nature of them in highsec, T1 battleships put you at a hopeless disadvantage and are no the proper doctrine.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#670 - 2014-11-11 23:44:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmao at pirate faction battleships being "realistic"

Because that is the realistic meta you are dealing with when it comes to the people CCP said they intended this ship to serve.
There are PVP groups in low/null that use Pirate BS on a small scale. Your own alliance uses Navy BS on a massive scale. Basing something off the cheapest possible use of it is certainly not realistic, and that's what CCP were doing to start with.

your problem is that the tail is hella wagging the dog here

the bowhead isn't meant to serve the incursion community's whims

it is not a boon bestowed upon the incursion community by the gods specifically to solve all of their problems

it's a ship that offers functionality that MIGHT be useful to the incursion community, if they aren't clinically ******** about their risk exposure

the "realistic meta" isn't something ccp cobbled together, it's something that players have flocculated into existence to maximize their ISK/hr while completely abandoning any rational thoughts towards operational security and common sense

i know for a fact that incursions are hella doable in hacs and guardians, and even with t1 battlecruisers, so it's not like the game mechanics force you to fly hideously overspent garbage, that is the community's fault and their fault alone, and ccp doesn't have to kowtow to that garbage, nor should they

also you have some pretty funny views on how goonswarm federation operates, we use megathrons, which are t1 battleships, with cheap t2 fits and t1 rigs as our ship of the line

the navy battleship era was a year and a half ago and was scrapped due to the inability to acquire enough hulls to meet demand

the point of that aside was to gently illuminate your glaring lack of expertise in this particular matter and to softly chide you to stop while you're ahead
Fruckton Haulalot
Free Terrans League
Legendary-Rejects
#671 - 2014-11-11 23:45:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the same principle still applies
use less expensive hulls

Live in less expensive space. Don't use Capitals. Blah blah, you want to try and tell people to use bad tools for the job, don't constantly defend your 'need' to have expensive things and be able to run SRP's in return.

The same principle does not apply, you use the correct tool for the job.

We are also assuming the person is actually max tanking the Bowhead here. Not fitting it for agility & warp speed in which case it would be profitable to gank while carrying more expensive hulls. Good RNG says even at MAX tank it can still be profitable to gank carrying marauders, certainly profitable to gank carrying rigged T3's, and probably profitable to gank if filled with a bunch of smaller T2 ships also.

So, the EHP bump that CCP gave it was needed to fufill it's intended role, It was not over the top, and it's EHP was not sufficient before because CCP were basing it on pretty much the cheapest possible option you could be using the Bowhead for, not a realistic situation.
Does it need even further EHP? Not that I can see either.



the very small bump to the shields and hull are a step in the right dicrection but again... it still weaker then an ORCA.......... this ship will be hauling many times over the value that an orca can haul...... there for the BOWHEAD should have much higher tank to protect the cargo.
Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#672 - 2014-11-11 23:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
So we have the entire goon forum division with their Rapid Tear Launchers overheated, with their FC Tippia sitting at 0 with whineosural beacon lit. If goons cry, it must be something they cannot exploit, which means it's a good design.

Now let's get on topic.

1) Definitely lacks EHP to pass uedama in one piece, will need more. 10:1 profitability to investment on gank scale, less than T1 indy going as far as 100:1, or 25:1 on T2 indy, but more than current 5:1 on freighters, and thus useless without other meaningful anti-gank options. And since a whale can't realistically have any of them aside from ehp, needs more.

2) With ganking as easy, brainless and multiboxable as it is now, will be ganked just for griefing, and due to 1) ganks will always succeed, as there is no variety in its fittings, and due to it being niche, no way to use it without being at unfair disadvantage against gank squads.

tl;dr
Good idea, I like it, but with current game state this implementation would be of limited to no use, because of how riskless, brainless and rewarding it is to gank one.

By the way, can you use its SMB in the same way as Orca? If yes, I can imagine seeing this guy in a belt, just so you can quickswap barges for combat ships, cuz Orca just doesn't have enough capacity for it. Maybe it will discourage gankers from dropping on my OP again (not like they ever succeeded, but that is only because they were worse than my dog at eve, a ganker with at least monkey brain would never fail currently).

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#673 - 2014-11-11 23:48:37 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
So we have the entire goon forum division with their Rapid Tear Launchers overheated with their FC Tippia sitting at 0 with whineosural beacon lit. If goons cry, it must be something they cannot exploit, which means it's a good design.

what can i say, we're naturally attracted to snuff out entitlement and rank hypocrisy
Fruckton Haulalot
Free Terrans League
Legendary-Rejects
#674 - 2014-11-11 23:56:53 UTC
PVPers and Gankers are a core part of EVE ... they always have been and always will be.... but from time to time the highsec or carebears if you will need a some love too....

Saying that the Bowhead has to be easily gankable is counter productive on all parts.


look at null and lowsec.... PVPers and Gankers and pirates cry all the time cause they have no one to shoot... and want to find ways to force highsec bears to have to go down and be shot at...

here is a thought... stop makeing low/null so hostile to live in and you might see more people there... kill players who venture down there and well they dont stay... they go back to highsec for their fun...

then gankers/pirates demand ways to make easier to gank players in high sec....


established characters/groups being able to kill everyone only ends with a result of few and few indies/pvers.. then eventually few players means fewer profits for CCP its a downword spiral...


Give highsec bears their love this time and find some way to exploit or demand a easy way for you to grief later
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#675 - 2014-11-11 23:58:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Incursions are meant to be run in pirate faction ships. Using T1 hulls renders you unable to win contests and means your rewards are far inferior to blitzing L4s. To the extent this ship was meant to help incursion runners, the relevant metrics involve putting pirate hulls inside.

Edit - meant to as in because of the competitive nature of them in highsec, T1 battleships put you at a hopeless disadvantage and are no the proper doctrine.

no, this is what you think incursions demand, not what they actually demand

i think that goonswarm should own all of 0.0, this does not entitle us to manna from heaven
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#676 - 2014-11-12 00:02:57 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Incursions are meant to be run in pirate faction ships. Using T1 hulls renders you unable to win contests and means your rewards are far inferior to blitzing L4s. To the extent this ship was meant to help incursion runners, the relevant metrics involve putting pirate hulls inside.

Edit - meant to as in because of the competitive nature of them in highsec, T1 battleships put you at a hopeless disadvantage and are no the proper doctrine.

no, this is what you think incursions demand, not what they actually demand

i think that goonswarm should own all of 0.0, this does not entitle us to manna from heaven


If you don't fit to win, you lose contests, don't make isk, and all your players leave for other fleets. Welcome to the free market. How is BoB doing?

Find me one incursion community that is based on HACs and T1s? And if you think it's viable, come run it for a couple of months.

Putting yourself at a hopeless disadvantage in a competitive atmosphere is nothing short of wilfully insane.
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#677 - 2014-11-12 00:06:30 UTC
Great idea, a ship like this is needed.

But has to be much faster or much tankier. Or its plain dumb to fly one...
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#678 - 2014-11-12 00:11:30 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

If you don't fit to win, you lose contests, don't make isk, and all your players leave for other fleets. Welcome to the free market. How is BoB doing?

Find me one incursion community that is based on HACs and T1s? And if you think it's viable, come run it for a couple of months.

Putting yourself at a hopeless disadvantage in a competitive atmosphere is nothing short of wilfully insane.

ah yes the competitive atmosphere where no one uses suicide ganking, wardecs, or espionage to hamper the opfor

painting a hilariously narrow view of how you prefer to operate and then trying to pass it off as the ironclad reality of the situation is pretty funny

fact of the matter is that even if what you say is true, somehow, ccp is STILL not beholden to custom-tailor the ship towards your myopic needs because trying to balance the EHP of the ship against your gawdy nonsense is just as insane as you claim my views to be
Doddy
Excidium.
#679 - 2014-11-12 00:15:17 UTC
Querns wrote:
Rowells wrote:
and we chose not to name them ferries because?

Ferries only operate between two banks of a river or lake. Tugs move up and down the body of water they are in and can make multiple stops.


Um no, Ferries are simply vessels that transport goods and passengers across a body of water. They can have many stops and most are marine (usually to islands), not river/lake crossings. A tug is a vessel that maneuvers other vessels by pushing or pulling.

Ferry would not be appropriate for the Bowhead because there are no passengers involved. Tug could be appropriate in that they are for moving other ships, however the mechanism is entirely different and as tugs are generally very small ships with immensely powerful engines they are kind of the opposite of Bowhead.

If CCP really wanted a real world example to follow (not saying they should) then the current equivalent would be heavy lift ships.

Heavy Lift Ships
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#680 - 2014-11-12 00:17:59 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

If you don't fit to win, you lose contests, don't make isk, and all your players leave for other fleets. Welcome to the free market. How is BoB doing?

Find me one incursion community that is based on HACs and T1s? And if you think it's viable, come run it for a couple of months.

Putting yourself at a hopeless disadvantage in a competitive atmosphere is nothing short of wilfully insane.

ah yes the competitive atmosphere where no one uses suicide ganking, wardecs, or espionage to hamper the opfor

painting a hilariously narrow view of how you prefer to operate and then trying to pass it off as the ironclad reality of the situation is pretty funny

fact of the matter is that even if what you say is true, somehow, ccp is STILL not beholden to custom-tailor the ship towards your myopic needs because trying to balance the EHP of the ship against your gawdy nonsense is just as insane as you claim my views to be


Yes, it's a more rarified atmosphere of competition, which doesn't revolve around tears and blown up ships.

CCP isn't "beholden" to anything, but to the extent that they want to help incursion runners move their ships around highsec, and apparently they do, it's important to design the ship in such a way that incursion runners will actually use it. Otherwise, why bother?