These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dave Stark
#541 - 2014-11-11 16:48:23 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


could surprise them even more by webbing it so they get less of a chance to bump you, too.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2014-11-11 17:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: S'No Flake
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


could surprise them even more by webbing it so they get less of a chance to bump you, too.


Well, i said Loki because of:

Loki Defensive - Warfare Processor
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers

Links will help the shield (which with the last change to the numbers it's a boost),
it will help the web speed to go in warp and,
with a lot of tank and you can put the pith-a and the shini stuff in the loki.

EDIT: i'm wondering if some unbonused remote shield transfers will help or not but if the ship doesn't go in warp, unless you bump the bumping ship, nothing will keep the bowhead alive.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#543 - 2014-11-11 17:09:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


I am deeply disappointed, you just increased EHP to 519k. No amount of EHP will stop the whining and people would very happily have used the ship as it is. The initial response is that 420k EHP is plenty, showing that nobody had a clue how much EHP the original stats gave when properly fitted (more than 420).
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#544 - 2014-11-11 17:17:21 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Your asking for people to pay for more than an orca and get less tank ...


If by "less" you mean "more". The extra low lets you fit an extra bulkhead, giving you almost the same amount of hull while having more shield and armor HP.


I was refering to base rates:
Quote:

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 10000 / 11000 / 36500


Orca: 10750 / 6900 / 46000 - So to give you credit, yes.
Rorqual: 90000/30000/250000 - Just for ***** and giggles. since this one ACTUALLY is a capital ship (Quit calling ships what there not? I need the skill Capital Ships to fly a real capital ship. )

One benifiet of the orca is being able to overheat an active shield tank while you pray. Yes you get more hull, and yeah DCII helps with hull but you can't overheat DCII so paying attention while this ship is getting ganked adds no benefit to the owner.

Last I checked ORE had a shield icon, not a hull icon,

Cost to risk ratio does not make this viable at the moment, I will wait for updated figures


indeed all ORE ships are meant too be shield tank ..
how about ...Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 45000 / 8000 / 26500 .. reduce the lowslots to 1 DCU.



so Rise any response too this???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#545 - 2014-11-11 17:24:18 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
Last I checked ORE had a shield icon, not a hull icon,

Cost to risk ratio does not make this viable at the moment, I will wait for updated figures


indeed all ORE ships are meant too be shield tank ..
how about ...Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 45000 / 8000 / 26500 .. reduce the lowslots to 1 DCU.


so Rise any response too this???


The thing about that is introducing the hull rigs buffed hull tanking to a ridiculous degree for the orca. CCP were warned that they needed to rebalance the orca's base HP at the time but ignored the feedback.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#546 - 2014-11-11 17:34:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?

I think that's fine.

Noob Question: Is it possible to see the fit on the ships stored inside the Bowhead with a scanner?
Warr Akini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#547 - 2014-11-11 17:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Warr Akini
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


How many people do you see doing that?

Oh, that's right - virtually none. Organized ganking is played up because it does a lot of damage - but as of right now, only two organizations have even remotely enough resources and talent to do it on a semi-regular basis. Mine is one of them.

And I sure as hell for sure won't bother with a 420k Bowhead (which would take me I think 55 Catalysts in a 0.5? Far more in higher secs, of course. I don't have that kind of manpower), especially when -the ship and cargo scanners don't reveal the fitting of ships in SMAs-. Why would I gank something when I have no idea of its value? Aside from for strategic purposes / removing assets from someone I deem hostile. But that's a big time/money commitment.

The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here...

Suicide ganking is in my opinion one of the few fun things left in EVE, and it has been nothing but nerfed into the ground. I'm not talking about people 'adapting' (we've seen that), I'm talking about straight-from-CCP nerfs.

(Don't forget that cargo scanners also can't scan past two layers of container - working as intended, CCP?)
Bed Bugg
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2014-11-11 17:44:51 UTC
I cannot wait to see the wrecks of these balloon animals littering HS space lanes.

The gank mails on the ones packed with incursion ships should be epic!
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#549 - 2014-11-11 17:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
CCP Rise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me.


1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for?

I still haven't seen any reply to my point that this is not worth ganking with what you proposed (three t2 fit battleships) at its old EHP. What is the mathmatical or game design basis for this additional EHP?

These are not cost-effective to gank and were not before - and that's not taking into account that you're hitting one blind.
Viktor Fel
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#550 - 2014-11-11 17:50:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


Did it ever occur to you that these are not supposed to be combat ships?

Who is Viktor Fel?

Killboard
Slap Chop
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#551 - 2014-11-11 17:52:22 UTC
Holy ****, they upped these things to a ridiculous 420k ehp and you can't even scan the fits of the ships they're carrying?

It's unfortunate that the CCP of 2014 thinks adding something like this to EVE is a good idea.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#552 - 2014-11-11 18:00:50 UTC
Warr Akini wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


How many people do you see doing that?

Oh, that's right - virtually none. Organized ganking is played up because it does a lot of damage - but as of right now, only two organizations have even remotely enough resources and talent to do it on a semi-regular basis. Mine is one of them.

And I sure as hell for sure won't bother with a 420k Bowhead (which would take me I think 55 Catalysts in a 0.5? Far more in higher secs, of course. I don't have that kind of manpower), especially when -the ship and cargo scanners don't reveal the fitting of ships in SMAs-. Why would I gank something when I have no idea of its value? Aside from for strategic purposes / removing assets from someone I deem hostile. But that's a big time/money commitment.

The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here...

Suicide ganking is in my opinion one of the few fun things left in EVE, and it has been nothing but nerfed into the ground. I'm not talking about people 'adapting' (we've seen that), I'm talking about straight-from-CCP nerfs.

(Don't forget that cargo scanners also can't scan past two layers of container - working as intended, CCP?)


The fix for SMB will come in Rhea or next patch, didn't Rise say that at the beginning of the thread?

And you don't need all 55 cata at the same time, just eject them from an orca or another Bowhead and your pilots will just reship.
I've seen more than a few freighters killed by 2 waves while i was doing hauling.

And the scanning double wrapped packages .. you don't even need to see it. Who does that, for sure they have something to hide :)

I don't mind Marauders, BSs, blinged T3s being gnanked.
Big transport ships on the other hand, are pretty much defenseless. Well, not Orca but all the other ships are defenseless.
At least on Bowhead you can fit some resits mods.
Lickem Lolly
ELUSH Rehab
#553 - 2014-11-11 18:02:39 UTC
Suicide ganking in highsec is ruining Eve. This is why so many of our new players quit in the first few weeks. CCP, please do more things like this to make ships un-gankable.

If you have any doubts, complete this sentence to yourself - " I like non-consensual ---."

Think of anything you like there?

Non-consensual PVP is ruining Eve. Make the jerks go to lowsec or nullsec for PVP.


Cheers
Warr Akini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#554 - 2014-11-11 18:04:32 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
The fix for SMB will come in Rhea or next patch, didn't Rise say that at the beginning of the thread?

And you don't need all 55 cata at the same time, just eject them from an orca or another Bowhead and your pilots will just reship.
I've seen more than a few freighters killed by 2 waves while i was doing hauling.

And the scanning double wrapped packages .. you don't even need to see it. Who does that, for sure they have something to hide :)

I don't mind Marauders, BSs, blinged T3s being gnanked.
Big transport ships on the other hand, are pretty much defenseless. Well, not Orca but all the other ships are defenseless.
At least on Bowhead you can fit some resits mods.


He said that the bay contents will drop - I am saying that scanners at current do not pick up what the ships are fitted with - so that basically masks whatever you're carrying much better than any EHP number. This is already true for Orcas, by the way.

Also, no - that's actually an interesting griefing tactic we've seen, people carrying worthless double-wraps.

Additionally, industrials may be 'defenseless', but they certainly are not paperweights when used properly. And you have maybe seen one or two double-waved kills. I sure as hell don't do it unless there's something REALLY REALLY nice in there, because that burns a lot of time for me and adds a lot of risk of interference from third parties. Again, try not to assume too much about the ganker mindset.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#555 - 2014-11-11 18:05:30 UTC
Warr Akini wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


How many people do you see doing that?

Oh, that's right - virtually none. Organized ganking is played up because it does a lot of damage - but as of right now, only two organizations have even remotely enough resources and talent to do it on a semi-regular basis. Mine is one of them.

And I sure as hell for sure won't bother with a 420k Bowhead (which would take me I think 55 Catalysts in a 0.5? Far more in higher secs, of course. I don't have that kind of manpower), especially when -the ship and cargo scanners don't reveal the fitting of ships in SMAs-. Why would I gank something when I have no idea of its value? Aside from for strategic purposes / removing assets from someone I deem hostile. But that's a big time/money commitment.

The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here...

Suicide ganking is in my opinion one of the few fun things left in EVE, and it has been nothing but nerfed into the ground. I'm not talking about people 'adapting' (we've seen that), I'm talking about straight-from-CCP nerfs.

(Don't forget that cargo scanners also can't scan past two layers of container - working as intended, CCP?)

Tell us why it is fun. Serious question.
Warr Akini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#556 - 2014-11-11 18:06:08 UTC
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Suicide ganking in highsec is ruining Eve. This is why so many of our new players quit in the first few weeks. CCP, please do more things like this to make ships un-gankable.

If you have any doubts, complete this sentence to yourself - " I like non-consensual ---."

Think of anything you like there?

Non-consensual PVP is ruining Eve. Make the jerks go to lowsec or nullsec for PVP.


Cheers


Do you know what Burn Jita was? One of CCP's biggest promotional events. And 'the first few weeks' means they're not in freighters/orcas/bowheads, therefore not entirely relevant to this conversation.
Warr Akini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#557 - 2014-11-11 18:08:27 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Tell us why it is fun. Serious question.


Risk. Unbelievable risk. Suicide ganking carries with it a colossal risk of failure and loss of lots of dollars with no guarantee of any gain. It is a tool for damaging enemy logistics and achieving strategic goals without having to sit on a Titan for four hours. It can lead to extraordinary gain if your target is extraordinarily stupid.

I've heard tell there are people who engage in it for the sheer griefing of it. I'm a murderer, not a sadist.
Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#558 - 2014-11-11 18:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sullen Decimus
Warr Akini wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
420K EHP is an outstanding number. The things will be effectively ungankable. Very nice. I much approve. These numbers also make a lot of the recent posts on this thread inapplicable.


Seriously? effectively ungankable?
You can bump this ship out of alignment until downtime and bringing a few waves of cheap fit destroyers to kill it.
It's pretty damn easy to draw concord away between waves.

I like it more with the shield increase because now you can bring your 2nd char in a loki with links and maybe surprise the gankers :)


How many people do you see doing that?

Oh, that's right - virtually none. Organized ganking is played up because it does a lot of damage - but as of right now, only two organizations have even remotely enough resources and talent to do it on a semi-regular basis. Mine is one of them.

And I sure as hell for sure won't bother with a 420k Bowhead (which would take me I think 55 Catalysts in a 0.5? Far more in higher secs, of course. I don't have that kind of manpower), especially when -the ship and cargo scanners don't reveal the fitting of ships in SMAs-. Why would I gank something when I have no idea of its value? Aside from for strategic purposes / removing assets from someone I deem hostile. But that's a big time/money commitment.

The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here...

Suicide ganking is in my opinion one of the few fun things left in EVE, and it has been nothing but nerfed into the ground. I'm not talking about people 'adapting' (we've seen that), I'm talking about straight-from-CCP nerfs.

(Don't forget that cargo scanners also can't scan past two layers of container - working as intended, CCP?)


three things.
A) yes the ehp bump is completely necessary. We're talking about a ship capable of holding 3 battleships. the main niche that will use this more than anything is incursions runners which they will be faction ships most likely. If you do a cargo scan and see 2 vindi's and a mach. you don't need to see their fitting to know there is a lot of value. Not to mention it's a shield ehp boost so at least you can bring support ships as a security convoy AS THE GAME WAS INTENDED.
B) Are people going to gank it not knowing the value? Hell yes. That's the most ridiculous argument i have ever seen considering how many freighters are suicide ganked already with NOTHING in the cargo hold simply for "the tears".
C) If the ONLY thing you find fun in this game is suicide ganking please go play another game. Your subs won't be missed.

CSM XI Member

Twitter: Sullen_Decimus

Tweetfleet: @sullen_decimus
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#559 - 2014-11-11 18:15:48 UTC
Speaking as someone who's done a pretty even split of carebearing, solo and "elite group" PvP, and high-sec suicide ganking, I'm surprised to see this amount of rage over a perceived difficulty in wrecking someone else's day.

I don't lose any sleep knowing that highseccers are hauling shinys around an you shouldn't either.

Bacon makes us stronger
Valterra Craven
#560 - 2014-11-11 18:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Warr Akini wrote:
Again, try not to assume too much about the ganker mindset.


I haven't really been involved in this whole ganking debate, honestly because it shouldn't be part of this thread. But I'd like to add my two cents at this point just because people don't have to assume anything about your mindset or motivations for this "mechanic" to be insanely stupid to begin with.

And before I get started on why, no I don't believe hi-sec space should be 100% safe.

That being said, the fact that people can repeatedly kill ships in hi sec over and over again is stupid. Think of it this way. Criminals today usually get second and third chances, but at some point, the legal systems realizes a person is a lost cause and removes them civilization. In this case you can repair your sec an unlimited number of times. How does that make sense? What needs to happen is that the system needs to be modified so that hi sec gankers after a certain amount of ganks get un-repairable sec status so as to make it very risky for them to move around empire. This allows people to engage in the activity on a limited basis with actual true consequences for their actions should they try to make it a full time career.