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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#461 - 2014-11-11 11:25:48 UTC
You seriously don't need more ehp on this ship tbh.
If you're that worried, have an alt or a friend web you into warp. It makes you near unscannable and ungankable (and gankers always go for the easier pickings, of which there are plenty).

That said, at the moment ship fitting cannot be scanned, so they'll have to base themselves on the value of the ships only.

Stop trying to whine to CCP in order to make them give you things and instead use your bloody heads and think for a change.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2014-11-11 11:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, we're talking about it here and think there's probably no good reason not to raise the HP some. Where do you guys think it needs to be to make say, three t2 fit BS, inefficient to gank?

And you're right about afk travel vs active travel, switching to agility to support align time sounds good to me.

When balancing EHP on this ship, please keep in mind that the cargohold reduction from bulkheads does not affect this in any meaningful way. Unlike freighters and orcas, there is no reason this ship should eve have expanded cargoholds, so any base ehp increase will be multiplied by 3x adaptive invul fields and DCU2 + 2 bulkheads + 3 t2 bulkhead rigs in almost every case. I could understand arguments for higher than 300K ehp, but if you are breaking 400K, other drawbacks should be considered, either in a SMB reduction on bulkheads, or a price for this ship putting it in a similar range to jump freighters.

Currently orcas and freighters are in a good place with high cargo fits being vulnerable to ganks, and heavily tanked fits nearly impervious. This is an important niche that needs to be filled, but I really don't want to see this new ship be an all upside option.

I hope the SMB's dropping ships issue will be fixed before this is released, otherwise this will be a heavy nerf to suicide ganking as a profession.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2014-11-11 11:33:03 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
You seriously don't need more ehp on this ship tbh.
If you're that worried, have an alt or a friend web you into warp. It makes you near unscannable and ungankable (and gankers always go for the easier pickings, of which there are plenty).

That said, at the moment ship fitting cannot be scanned, so they'll have to base themselves on the value of the ships only.

Stop trying to whine to CCP in order to make them give you things and instead use your bloody heads and think for a change.



I'm usually all for helping/alts/escorts but no-one has yet come up with a reason when you have those pilots on hand - to not simply fly your own ships about. Why stuff it into a vulnerable slow warping ship at all?

If you have the numbers, you're faster flying the stuff you're transporting - unless it is small stuff - in which case the cargo value plummets anyway so it's irrelevant, mostly.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2014-11-11 11:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Vulfen wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the size of the bay.

This ship has a bay that is just too small to fit 3 of the largest battleships (Machariel)

CCP please can you consider giving it that level of space in the bay. This ship has interesting implementations and i am impressed with everything else on it i just think that maybe that value needs to be looked at a little.

Thanks Vulfen

I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

And you're right about afk travel vs active travel, switching to agility to support align time sounds good to me.


This sounds like a better bonus to me, maybe in low-value ships velocity bonuses are valuable for autopiloting, but a warp speed bonus or align time bonus for larger ships are much more useful at the moment due to freighter ganks causing pilots to actively navigate instead of with autopilot. (I would be more attracted to a warp speed bonus because having 2 seconds faster align time isn't going to save a ship from getting ganked 90% of the time, but having reasonably less time travelling overall via warp speed improvements could.)

From a suicide ganking perspective, an agility bonus is actually harder to deal with because it affects how hard the ship is to bump. Anyone who has solo bumped an inertia stabbed fenir or nomad will know what I'm talking about. For those that don't, it can be difficult to keep even an autopiloting i-stabbed nomad from reaching a gate and jumping if you have only one bumper, let alone prevent it from warping.
A warp speed bonus doesn't affect us much at all as we are usually in faster ships anyways. Because this ship can fit a 100mn mwd to help with warps, I'm not sure that an inertia bonus will help it much except to avoid ganks, so I agree with you that a warp speed bonus is probably the best way to go to impact general usage of the ship. Something like 0.1-0.2 Au/s per level would be very reasonable.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#465 - 2014-11-11 11:51:28 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

How about a max hold of 1,985,000m³ — that way you get the three Machs and your choice of blockade runner so you can quickly go back and pick up the expensive modules in a separate trip? Blink
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2014-11-11 11:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Tippia wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

How about a max hold of 1,985,000m³ — that way you get the three Machs and your choice of blockade runner so you can quickly go back and pick up the expensive modules in a separate trip? Blink

Why would we want that? Then the machs wouldn't have all their expensive modules on them!

Shivaja wrote:
Primary role of this ship : Give sucide gankers in Hi sec more targets to shoot at and chance to inflict more isk damage.


You forgot the secondary role of the ship: To transport fitted taloses for suicide ganking =P.

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Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#467 - 2014-11-11 12:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Tippia wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

How about a max hold of 1,985,000m³ — that way you get the three Machs and your choice of blockade runner so you can quickly go back and pick up the expensive modules in a separate trip? Blink

Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
It will only be used for cheap T1 stuff. And considering how cheap T1 stuff is used, there is little need for a ship capable of hauling them assembled in a large ammount.

As for small hulls, considering the gank threshold, a orca will pretty much always be better to haul T2+ ships.
Dave stark
#468 - 2014-11-11 12:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Odithia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

How about a max hold of 1,985,000m³ — that way you get the three Machs and your choice of blockade runner so you can quickly go back and pick up the expensive modules in a separate trip? Blink

Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
It will only be used for cheap T1 stuff. And considering how cheap T1 stuff is used, there is little need for a ship capable of hauling them assembled in a large ammount.

As for small hulls, considering the gank threshold, a orca will pretty much always be better to haul T2+ ships.


TIL: 400k ehp is paper thin.

edit: just throwing it out there, if blue frog can build a business around moving 750k m3 worth 5bn, i'm sure anyone with a clue can move a few machariels around in this thing just as safely.
Ridgerunner21
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#469 - 2014-11-11 12:33:18 UTC
I really can't say anything more than
Quote:
I WANT IT


And now; back to our regularly scheduled program.
Jedediah Arndtz
Jedediah Arndtz Corporation
#470 - 2014-11-11 12:37:01 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


yeah except this ship already has ~400k ehp, it's already equalling the orca's ehp.

there's literally no justification for more ehp than "i want to mindlessly overload my cargo with no negative repercussions for my stupidity".



CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP



Not to mention the orca can only realistically fit cruisers or a bc and 1-2 cruisers, not battleships.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2014-11-11 12:38:10 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
I happen to agree with this. Three machariels come out to 1,785,000, so it would be nice if this ship could hit 1.8m m3 with maxed skills. Its really hard to justify using this instead of making two trips. Perhaps a base cargo of 1,200,000m3 with a 10% capacity per level bonus on the skill would be better.

How about a max hold of 1,985,000m³ — that way you get the three Machs and your choice of blockade runner so you can quickly go back and pick up the expensive modules in a separate trip? Blink

Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
It will only be used for cheap T1 stuff. And considering how cheap T1 stuff is used, there is little need for a ship capable of hauling them assembled in a large ammount.

As for small hulls, considering the gank threshold, a orca will pretty much always be better to haul T2+ ships.

The point isn't that its a good idea, the point is that the option should be there. Also, at 350K ehp with 100mn MWD, this is far safer than any t1 freighter.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#472 - 2014-11-11 12:39:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Also, if I truly was a troll, I'd report your name for obscenity. In fact, I might just do that anyways.


please do

oh wait, someone else who couldn't come up with a valid counter to one of my statements already did that.

LOL

o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2014-11-11 12:55:28 UTC
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


yeah except this ship already has ~400k ehp, it's already equalling the orca's ehp.

there's literally no justification for more ehp than "i want to mindlessly overload my cargo with no negative repercussions for my stupidity".



CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP



Not to mention the orca can only realistically fit cruisers or a bc and 1-2 cruisers, not battleships.


Rise was using t1 rigs for his ehp check.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Dave stark
#474 - 2014-11-11 13:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


yeah except this ship already has ~400k ehp, it's already equalling the orca's ehp.

there's literally no justification for more ehp than "i want to mindlessly overload my cargo with no negative repercussions for my stupidity".



CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP



Not to mention the orca can only realistically fit cruisers or a bc and 1-2 cruisers, not battleships.


Rise was using t1 rigs for his ehp check.


which gives us fun fact of the day!

i'm lazy and cheap, and my orca has t1 rigs, and 365k ehp. so it basically does equal the orca's ehp, and should hit near 400k with t2 rigs. (and above with implants, links, and other nice things.)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#475 - 2014-11-11 13:06:54 UTC
Odithia wrote:

Be realistic, considering how paper thin it is, nobody in their right mind will ever use this ship to transport 3 faction BS.
It will only be used for cheap T1 stuff. And considering how cheap T1 stuff is used, there is little need for a ship capable of hauling them assembled in a large ammount.

As for small hulls, considering the gank threshold, a orca will pretty much always be better to haul T2+ ships.


It has more ehp than the three battleships it will be carrying for me. Im also one of those people who will likely be stuffing faction battleships in it. Its also a tool any logibee would give their sixth leg for.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#476 - 2014-11-11 13:09:19 UTC
Celly S wrote:

please do

oh wait, someone else who couldn't come up with a valid counter to one of my statements already did that.

Apparently constantly being called out on lack of evidence, moving goalposts, and a systemic lack of understanding of game mechanics counts as having a position with no "valid counter."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#477 - 2014-11-11 13:35:13 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
RonUSMC wrote:
Given: The default configuration does not need to be considered. Since you might be hauling 20B in ships, you will want to officer mod it, so any existing modules can be used.


Just web it into warp, people do this all the time with freighters full of goodies and don't get caught because it is actually very very hard to catch them and you never get to scan them in the first place.


That doesn't work on regional gates. You can pop the web alt and then bump the freighter.
Even a bonused ship like hyena won't always be in range of the freighter.
And if it's using 2 navy webs to reach further and you pop it, hell that's a lot of isk killed by a 2mil dessy :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#478 - 2014-11-11 13:39:39 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this, so much.

it shouldn't be designed to be unprofitable to gank with 3 marauders/pirate battleships inside it.

unprofitable to gank with 3 unfit megathrons? sure, but not 3 unfit vindicators.

Sure, it should have enough tank to be unprofitable to gank while carrying unfit megathrons in Niarja. It's role necessitates traveling from one side of hisec to the other. Going through 0.5 systems (like Niarja) is a necessary part of that role, ergo it should have sufficient tank to do the job of carrying the unfit megathrons throughout hisec.


It already does, properly fitted this has over 400k EHP while at the same time getting 10s warps with a MWD. I would be very comfortable moving three T2 fitted battleships without an escort with those stats and if you aren't, that sounds like a problem for a psychiatrist.


Who cares about time to enter warp with a mwd? If it can't cloak, those 8 secods are enough to be bumped out of alignment until the gank fleet travels from niarja to udeama or the other way around.

If you want that MWD to be useful, the ship needs a high slot for a cloak.
Dave stark
#479 - 2014-11-11 13:41:45 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this, so much.

it shouldn't be designed to be unprofitable to gank with 3 marauders/pirate battleships inside it.

unprofitable to gank with 3 unfit megathrons? sure, but not 3 unfit vindicators.

Sure, it should have enough tank to be unprofitable to gank while carrying unfit megathrons in Niarja. It's role necessitates traveling from one side of hisec to the other. Going through 0.5 systems (like Niarja) is a necessary part of that role, ergo it should have sufficient tank to do the job of carrying the unfit megathrons throughout hisec.


It already does, properly fitted this has over 400k EHP while at the same time getting 10s warps with a MWD. I would be very comfortable moving three T2 fitted battleships without an escort with those stats and if you aren't, that sounds like a problem for a psychiatrist.


Who cares about time to enter warp with a mwd? If it can't cloak, those 8 secods are enough to be bumped out of alignment until the gank fleet travels from niarja to udeama or the other way around.

If you want that MWD to be useful, the ship needs a high slot for a cloak.


reducing the align time of an orca/freighter to 10 seconds is always useful, even if you can't cloak.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#480 - 2014-11-11 13:42:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I have in-game fitting window showing around 350k EHP with a DCU II, 2x reinforced bulkheads II, 3x Transverse bulkhead I

This is in the same range as tank-oriented freighters - I'm sure people using the hauler would want as much as possible but this range should be reasonable, yes?


You've heard of Polarized weapons, yes ?

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.