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Confessions of a Transhumanist: On Death

Author
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#1 - 2014-11-10 20:03:50 UTC
Quote:
“Any philosophy that accepts death must itself be considered dead, its questions meaningless, its consolations worn out.”
- Intaki Immortalist Anheri Salqua.

Quote:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

I was 17 when I met Aidan Asgath, the man I had thought would become my husband. For the last four years, I'd been working as a street girl, a dancer, and a drug dealer, my life had begun a long slow slide into what likely would have been an early grave. Aidan changed all that. Blonde haired with deep green eyes, he was the day to my night. Our relationship progressed quickly, and the impact he had on my life cannot be understated. Though I still worked as a prostitute and stripper, he began to pull me out of that life. With his help, I was able to attend the CBD training school, and by the time I was 19, I was able to set aside my old past, working a legitimate and well paying job doing QA for the CBD mine that formed the heart of our city.

Aidan died in YC109. During the Food Riots following the crash of the elevator car, he'd gone out to join the protesters, and for his trouble took a rubber bullet in the gut. Instead of bouncing, it penetrated and tore apart his digestive system. Despite our best attempts to save him, he bled out on our kitchen table, I watched the light fade from his eyes, until they were empty and unseeing. It was then that I truly understood what it meant to die, and I hated it.

The hate ate and tore at me, fuelling my descent back into a drug addled haze. Aidan's death left a gaping hole in my heart, one that I filled with rage and anger at those I viewed as responsible. When the Angel Cartel came to Skarkon early the next year, I had already slid back among their ranks, and during the annexation, they gave me an opportunity to seek vengeance for Aidan's death.

The man responsible for his death was, in my mind, the captain of the spacelane patrol security, the one who ordered his men to open fire on the crowd. The first and last time I met him was in a dusty alley off a deserted street. He was bound and gagged. A cold metal firearm was pressed into my hand, and I blew his brains out. But the thing was, it didn't help me. Not really. As I watched his blood flow out of him, the rage I felt faded, and instead of the wound left my Aidan's death closing, it was just made all the obvious when I could no longer use my anger to hide it. I broke down on the ground there, and cried. The man I had killed had died for nothing. It didn't bring Aidan back, nothing would do that.

My drug use really took off at that point. I filled the void left with Drop, Crash and anything else that would make me forget the pain. When the Angels left Skarkon, they offered to take me with them, having been in and out of the gang for eight years by that point. I probably would have, but my life took an unexpected turn. My DNA had been sequenced by the CBD corporation when I took a job with them, and they discovered my capsule compatibility. Two men approached me, and made me the offer to go with them, and become a capsuleer on a charity grant from the republic.

In school, I did well, but I remained with the angels, quietly selling drugs between classes, helping smuggle things in and out of station, odd jobs that maintained my connection to that world. When I graduated, it was to return to that world. I did many things while a part of the cartel that I look back on with horror and disgust. I participated in the destruction of the Genesis vaults, I performed cruel experiments in mockery of true science. Between the drugs, and the camaraderie that angels provided, I was able to justify the horrible things I did.

It was in the light of the fires that destroyed Rilnais, that I finally broke free of that life and the horror at what I had been involved in set in. I set about trying to be better, to make amends, but nothing would undo the damage I had done. I couldn't bring back the people I had killed anymore then I could bring back Aidan. They were gone.

The more time that has passed since those days, the more I realize I am far from unique. My experiences are probably all too common. The spectre of death hangs over all of us, snatching away those we care about one by one by one. The fact that we can ponder the infinite cosmos yet we’re ultimately food for worms, I find heart wrenchingly paralysing, depressing, sad beyond all measurable limits. The idea that everything and everyone you love is going to be taken away from you, is unacceptable to me.

Now, some people would say that death is just a part of nature and should simply be accepted, but I feel that's dodging the issue. There are plenty of things that are natural that we consider unacceptable. All of our science and medicine exists because the natural world isn't perfect, it isn't engineered and neither are we. Natural selection doesn't optimize, and it doesn't care for our feelings. We should no more accept death then we accepted our planetbound existences.

We have the tools now. We can create a world without loss, without these encounters with grief, and that may sound like a manic fantasy of sorts, but I think that that’s what humankind has always done through our art is articulate our desire to be eternal, to be infinite. Intaki artist Ellun en Delumo said, “nothing is real that is not eternal.” So we write poetry and we build cathedrals that try to create transcendence as a topographical statement, that’s why we eternalize beautific moments and create gorgeous statues and write amazing songs; we long to immortalize ourselves, we want to carve our names, we want to say, I WAS HERE, I FELT SOMETHING, AND I MATTER. And we do matter, if not to the universe then to each other. And that’s why death has become an imposition on humanity, and is no longer acceptable.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#2 - 2014-11-11 01:12:05 UTC
God will laugh at your pathetic attempts to escape Death when he brings about the end of days, the Apocalypse, the Armageddon. He will laugh at you again as you stand before him at the Judgement, after which you will learn the true meaning of immortality as for millions and millions of years you will suffer the agonies and torments of Hell, and having so suffered, all that punishment will be but a speck — a trifling prelude — of the infinite, eternal punishment that will still await you. You, and all you filthy Transhumanists. You will glorify God in your destruction. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#3 - 2014-11-11 05:50:59 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
God will laugh at your pathetic attempts to escape Death when he brings about the end of days, the Apocalypse, the Armageddon. He will laugh at you again as you stand before him at the Judgement, after which you will learn the true meaning of immortality as for millions and millions of years you will suffer the agonies and torments of Hell, and having so suffered, all that punishment will be but a speck — a trifling prelude — of the infinite, eternal punishment that will still await you. You, and all you filthy Transhumanists. You will glorify God in your destruction. Amen. Amarr Victor.

ok

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Saiden Dia
#4 - 2014-11-11 06:14:43 UTC
I have not been following this summit long, but why is it that when I see you post it reminds me of Kuvakei?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-11-11 06:40:56 UTC
Saiden Dia wrote:
I have not been following this summit long, but why is it that when I see you post it reminds me of Kuvakei?


Because he too has a transhumanist utopia agenda?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ollie Rundle
#6 - 2014-11-11 15:04:49 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Saiden Dia wrote:
I have not been following this summit long, but why is it that when I see you post it reminds me of Kuvakei?


Because he too has a transhumanist utopia agenda?


The similarity is deeper than this.

To Saede, I would ask you to consider this hypothetical and respond in either public or private channels if you decide to make a response at all:

Quote:
Life in nature, without the benefits of the technology we have, is little more than wholesale death. Death is an imposition on our race and – in this day and age – one that is no longer acceptable.

-- CEO Address to Zainou Biotech researchers, YC 102

A dear friend or loved one is dying. You have tried for years to convince them of the benefits of cloning, extending one’s life beyond the normal span to the point of emulating immortality. You have tried to convince them to become a capsuleer. They have steadfastly refused to accept your arguments and kept their reasons from you. They reject the perceived benefits of the infomorph age unequivocally and they have been of clear mind in doing so.

They are now in a coma, deteriorating rapidly with only a short time to live. The decision on whether to prevent this or not is in your hands alone.

Do you respect their wishes despite the grief and pain it will cause you or do you convert them to an infomorph existence despite their wishes hoping they will gain a new perspective with time? Justify your answer.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-11-11 15:28:55 UTC

It is a common misconception that a world without death is one without loss. The casualty of immortality is the part of you that struggles so valiantly to stay alive.


If you think the animal inside you, the one that wants to live above all things, is yet stirring .... give it some time. It will fade as the years press on.

And then, you will want to die.

Call me Joe.

Jade Blackwind
#8 - 2014-11-11 15:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Death.

Death is an interesting topic. I often spend time just floating there and thinking about what the death really is, and what it truly means. I try to feel through and understand my own death and the death of the universe that inevitably will happen somewhere in the distant future. Though, then I mostly forget everything but that general feeling of... eternity free-falling into itself. Brain damage does weird things sometimes. But it also puts the world into a new perspective.

Death is the irreversible state when what one perceives as "I" fully ceases to exist and the consciousness is no more. To combat this, to prolong the existence of one's consciousness, "I", infinitely by any means necessary is a goal I can understand, as well as a goal of granting this gift to others.

But to preserve something from destruction, one must first define what he is trying to keep.

What is that "I"? What is human consciousness in the age of cloning and infomorphs? A set of data and processing algorythms, which can be freely transferred, uploaded and copied from one medium to another? When each clone dies, does that personality dies with the body, and a new copy is awakened to create a new, ever-changing "I"? The data themselves, our memory, does not make us what we are. What we are? If something, like an accident, suddenly and fully changes us, is the previous person residing in the same body dead?

When I die, what will die? If something is no more, where is it? Where are all the previous "me" that died before?

What are we? If something is to die, something must exist in the beginning. It is easy to say "I am", and answer the question "Who are you?" with a set of common parameters, mostly related to society. But do you know what are really "you"?

One day, the humanity may transcend itself and become one, a cluster-wide collective mind, with a nanite cloud or some sort of energy field as the "body", or collapse in a Sleeper-like virtual reality, where single consciousness is but a subroutine in the greater simulation matrix. Where will be all the humans as we know them now in that case? Their bodies will cease to exist and their little egos will be as raindrops in the ocean, dissolved. Is that death?

If a set of automatically generated data which no one knows about is erased completely with no message, backup or mention in the logs, did it even exist?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-11-11 17:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Jade Blackwind wrote:
to preserve something from destruction, one must first define what he is trying to keep.

What is that "I"? What is human consciousness in the age of cloning and infomorphs? A set of data and processing algorythms, which can be freely transferred, uploaded and copied from one medium to another? When each clone dies, does that personality dies with the body, and a new copy is awakened to create a new, ever-changing "I"? The data themselves, our memory, does not make us what we are. What we are? If something, like an accident, suddenly and fully changes us, is the previous person residing in the same body dead?

When I die, what will die? If something is no more, where is it? Where are all the previous "me" that died before?


Let's suppose that by some miracle of spacetime folding we were able to send a reporter back in time to interview my five-year-old self. He could have scored a riveting journalistic coup on the adventures of my favourite toys.

Maybe he'd then interview my fifteen-year-old self, who, I'll be honest, was a smart-aleck bully swaggering around on too much newly-acquired testosterone, picking on my classmates and risking an unwise and early fatherhood among the gym equipment with too many girlfriends.

Then Interview my thirty-year-old self, all duty and courage and honour, invincible behind Ishukone Watch SWAT-team armour and built around a solid pole of iron and Heiian that got shoved up my ass and left there.

Interview me now, pushing fifty years old. Empyrean Billionaire, investor, industrialist and expert in Sleeper systems cryptography, and an object of both esteem and contempt depending on who you ask.

Where did each Verin go? Are they dead? If so, then there is no practical difference between clone and non-clone. We all change, all the time. We all die, all the time. Living, second-by-second, means abandoning our past selves and embracing the new sense of self, rarely even noticing that we have done so. The fact that we can put a timestamp on the arbitrary moment when the sense of self ceases to be sited there and begins to be sited here is irrelevant.

If they are not dead, then neither is the Verin who was in-pod the last time I got splattered. I have far more in common with him than I do with the teenaged jock who only thought with his muscles and his ****.

The self is a process, it is the subjective feeling of continuity. I think I am Yakiya Verin Hakatain, therefore I am Yakiya Verin Hakatain. The essential core of Infomorph psychology is that nothing beyond that statement matters.

The five-year-old who could talk for a whole day about the Galaxy Rangers and Robot Rampage is effectively dead: he doesn't exist any more as he did then. And yet I don't see anybody mourning for the death of that child.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Jade Blackwind
#10 - 2014-11-11 17:39:18 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
The self is a process, it is the subjective feeling of continuity.
Indeed. I would also add the quote from Saede's post in the rogue drone thread which I just looked through. It also answers some questions to some degree:

Saede Riordan wrote:
From my perspective, what we percieve as self, a consistent, persistent internal entity, the thing that 'does the thinking' is in fact an illusion. Perhaps a more accurate way of looking at it is that we are our thoughts. We are thought.

An example of this, is that when we experience hunger, our consciousness consists mostly of neural interactions for consuming food. This is not the result of some core “self” giving commands to different cerebral areas. All the different parts of the brain become active and inactive and interact without a core.

Just as pixels on a screen can express themselves as a recognizable image when in unity, the convergence of neural interaction expresses itself as consciousness. At every moment we are in fact a different image. A different entity when talking, when hungry, when reading this post. Every second we become different persons as we go through different states. Our minds are like a river, endlessly flowing, never remaining the same.

Within this perspective framework, thought is simply a product of time.


...But if we are a process, a subjective feeling of continuity, what does it mean to stop death? If long after the "real me", if that ever exists and whatever that means, is dead, there is some sort of cognitive process going on somewhere - in a human body, or in a machine, and that process thinks of itself as me, does that really mean that I am not dead?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-11-11 17:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Jade Blackwind wrote:
[if we are a process, a subjective feeling of continuity, what does it mean to stop death? If long after the "real me", if that ever exists and whatever that means, is dead, there is some sort of cognitive process going on somewhere - in a human body, or in a machine, and that process thinks of itself as me, does that really mean that I am not dead?


The "real you" is whatever entity happens to be thoroughly convinced that she is you. I know that Lieutenant Hakatain of the Watch Tanto-33 team would look at me and wonder "could this possibly be the same man?". He might look at my clone's brain, composed entirely of synthetic synapses, and question whether I realise that I am already a naked sense of self that only inhabits a given specimen of hardware out of habit and expediency.

The answer of course is that yes, I do realise that: the knowledge does not bother me in the slightest. I could, if I so wished, upload myself to computer networks and abandon a humanoid form outright: I do not so wish.

I may, in the future, change my mind. Or I may not. That's a decision for Verins who don't yet exist.

Death is the cessation of that continuity of self, and I personally think that striving to stop it outright is doomed to failure. There's an old engineering principle: "anything that can go wrong, eventually will."

Whether by entropy, technical malfunction or simple incredible bad luck, I will one day cease to be. Whether that day is tomorrow or trillions of years hence in a designer universe on the far side of the reality membrane doesn't change the outcome, I'd just prefer the latter on the grounds that in my book, to exist is better than to not exist, and that it's therefore a good idea to strive to exist for as long as possible.

But we all have to go sometime. I don't see any particular good to be accomplished from stressing about it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Karynn Denton
Astrometrica
#12 - 2014-11-11 17:55:00 UTC
The day comes when the Ancestors will call you to join them.
What you do before then defines the value of your life, to them, to yourself and to your loved ones.

If we deny their call, what value can we truly have? Without loss, there is nothing to gain.

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master

Jade Blackwind
#13 - 2014-11-12 00:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Stitcher wrote:
The "real you" is whatever entity happens to be thoroughly convinced that she is you. (...) Death is the cessation of that continuity of self.
And, because, from my current point of view, the opinion of that future entity if she is really me or not does not matter in the slightest, for an individual consciousness there is no death. There is only life, with no beginning or end, a process of existence at the given point in time.

For himself, everyone is immortal. The only consequence of death in our life, a shadow, is our fear of an imaginary death, because most of us can not understand it properly - or, to understand that, while we are, there is no death, and the second after we are no more and something else exists, as immortal as the one that has passed -- or that may never existed at all. There is nothing to fear in nothing.

What exists to some degree is an observer's image of a human personality as it develops over time. It is the outside society that connects the infinite number of dots into something that we see as a lifeline. Look what a truly free Minmatar has to say:

Quote:
The day comes when the Ancestors will call you to join them. What you do before then defines the value of your life, to them, to yourself and to your loved ones.


It is other people that create us in their imagination, that make us what we are, and for them - and only for them, not for us, our death does exist.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#14 - 2014-11-12 02:52:33 UTC
It is a good sentiment to have, Ms. Riordan.

But we are blinding ourselves by saying that we have the tools. We don't. Not yet. Instead we try to rely on a false promise, on cloning. Cloning provides the illusion of immortality, but nothing more. For the purposes of our loved ones, yes it might seem like we have saved them from death, but instead all we have done is guaranteed that we will always have a version of them come back. It is easy to give in to this fantasy, because there they are, in front of us. But we are deluding them and we are deluding ourselves when we believe they are really the same person. The worst part of this, is the disrespect it engenders for the dead. Instead of remembering and mourning the person you lost, you instead give in to the comfort of the copy and completely forget the person that came before. You are still losing them, but now not only are their lives lost, but so is the value of those lives.

Of course there is the falacy that Mr. Hakatain promotes, that as long as a person's memories stay the same that they are somehow the same person ("I think I am X, therefore I am X."). This is only a philosophical, textbook rambling about the nature of the self and continuation, which puts our own direct experiences and feelings as subordinate and distant and inferior. This is an awful way to look at our lives. The 5-year-old Samira Kernher and the 20-year-old one were not different people, she was the same person. She grew up, she continued living her life, day after day. She was one person at different times in her life. The... well, the current one, myself, is the one that isn't. Where I woke up, the person before me didn't. Her life, her experiences, stopped abruptly and suddenly, gone forever. And if I am podded, I will be gone forever just as the previous ones, and another new person will wake up with my memories. That is a horrible thing, and yet so many capsuleers cling to the illusion that because they themselves feel like its a continuation that it is. They don't realize (or, like Hakatain, they don't care) that when they clone, they will close their eyes and never open them again. The transfer of consciousness is a great lie; it is instead the duplication of consciousness.

Technology today is capable of truer methods. Through cybernetics, our lords in Amarr are reaching for it. The Jovians, with their genetic engineering, actually had it, and while their efforts ended poorly that does not make the foundations of their research useless--it just means we must be careful that we don't make the same mistakes on the journey.

The illusion should never be a substitution for real progress, and yet that is what we are doing today with cloning. The tools, the real tools, are out there, and we should work towards them instead.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#15 - 2014-11-12 03:07:00 UTC
Miss Kernher, I've been sort of curious about something since the time we talked about this topic. What are you feelings about the implants clone soldiers utilize? Where the brain is kept "Running" in a linked fashion in both the physical brain, and in hardware at the cloning bay, so death results in no interruption of consciousness at all, or rather, no "copying", per se - Despite the original source of said consciousness being destroyed.

Would you consider this true immortality? Because it is my understanding that Saede prefers stuff of this vein to the technology utilized by Capsuleers.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#16 - 2014-11-12 03:12:26 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Miss Kernher, I've been sort of curious about something since the time we talked about this topic. What are you feelings about the implants clone soldiers utilize? Where the brain is kept "Running" in a linked fashion in both the physical brain, and in hardware at the cloning bay, so death results in no interruption of consciousness at all, or rather, no "copying", per se - Despite the original source of said consciousness being destroyed.

Would you consider this true immortality? Because it is my understanding that Saede prefers stuff of this vein to the technology utilized by Capsuleers.


No.

Quote:
... the original source of said consciousness being destroyed.


For that reason.
Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-11-12 03:24:24 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Death is the cessation of that continuity of self, and I personally think that striving to stop it outright is doomed to failure. There's an old engineering principle: "anything that can go wrong, eventually will."

Whether by entropy, technical malfunction or simple incredible bad luck, I will one day cease to be. Whether that day is tomorrow or trillions of years hence in a designer universe on the far side of the reality membrane doesn't change the outcome, I'd just prefer the latter on the grounds that in my book, to exist is better than to not exist, and that it's therefore a good idea to strive to exist for as long as possible.


There is an unspoken assumption here that death is the end of existence, instead of a transition to a different one.


It is not an assumption I am comfortable making. Not yet, anyway.

Call me Joe.

Da Dom
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-11-14 05:52:14 UTC
Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches.

Because Far-que... That's why.

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#19 - 2014-11-14 23:29:01 UTC
Hmm. The death of Death seems to be a popular topic lately.
I think a world without loss is impossible, but a world without grief could be achieved nonetheless.

Viewing certain things as unacceptable, however, sets you up to experience grief, as do desires and attachments. Avoid them to avoid grief.

Peace,

-Ché
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-11-16 08:25:01 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:

Now, some people would say that death is just a part of nature and should simply be accepted, but I feel that's dodging the issue. There are plenty of things that are natural that we consider unacceptable. All of our science and medicine exists because the natural world isn't perfect, it isn't engineered and neither are we. Natural selection doesn't optimize, and it doesn't care for our feelings. We should no more accept death then we accepted our planetbound existences.

We have the tools now. We can create a world without loss, without these encounters with grief, and that may sound like a manic fantasy of sorts, but I think that that’s what humankind has always done through our art is articulate our desire to be eternal, to be infinite. Intaki artist Ellun en Delumo said, “nothing is real that is not eternal.” So we write poetry and we build cathedrals that try to create transcendence as a topographical statement, that’s why we eternalize beautific moments and create gorgeous statues and write amazing songs; we long to immortalize ourselves, we want to carve our names, we want to say, I WAS HERE, I FELT SOMETHING, AND I MATTER. And we do matter, if not to the universe then to each other. And that’s why death has become an imposition on humanity, and is no longer acceptable.

Don't try to trick the death, you will only trick yourself in the end.

Trying to fight the Death, to avoid unavoidable, you just lie yourself and willingly lay down on sacrificial altar just for your next clone to inherit your life. You always think that you are the same continous life, while in fact we all have multiple lives, our personalities are splitted at the moment of the death, of the copying of our mind. One of our copies continues to live, while another joins ancestors in their eternity. You have a memories of your older self, who died ages ago, when you took your first brain scan, but she died not without purpose, she gave life to YOU. And you bear her spirit in your heart.

Just like you bear spirit of Aidan in your heart, and while you won't forget him, he will live with you... as part of yourself.

There is nothing horrible in the death. Everything in our world have its start and its end. Ever stars and planets have their deaths. And the death is the only certain thing we can have in life. However, we all leave our trace, and nothing disappears in vain. Our ancestors live in us, they shape and guide us.

Aidan, your ancestors, your former self, they all left traces in this world, traces that intersect on you, they made you. Don't forget them, and they will be immortal, unlike our pseudo-immortal wayward clones.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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